WHAT DOES JOHN 17:24 TRULY MEAN?

SPELLING EDITED


WHAT DOES JOHN 17:24 TRULY MEAN?

 

Let us begin this study in God’s word by reading John 17:24 out of its context and focus only on the last phrase where Jesus is praying to the Father right before the crucifixion of Jesus. 

 

John 17:24.

 

“Father, I will that they also, whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which You have given me: for You loved me before the foundation of the world.”

 

What does the phrase, “for You loved me BEFORE the FOUNDATION of the world, truly mean in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God?

 

#1. Does this phrase mean that Jesus pre-existed in all eternity past without ever having a beginning as God the Son, the second person of the Godhead Trinity?

 

#2. Does this phrase mean that Jesus literally pre-existed in eternity past as God’s firstborn Son who was with God before the foundation of the world?

 

#3. Does this phrase mean that Jesus pre-existed only in the thoughts, mind, and plan of God to bring forth His firstborn Son in the future as the fulfillment of His spoken word of prophecy?

 

All Christians agree that Jesus was NOT literally SLAIN before or from the FOUNDATION of the world. But yet there is a Scripture that states that the Lamb was SLAIN FROM the FOUNDATION of the world. And all Christians agree that the Lamb is referring to Jesus.


Please read Revelation 13:8.  

 

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb SLAIN FROM the FOUNDATION of the world.” 

 

Again, no Christian that knows anything about what the Bible teaches would ever interpret Revelation 13:8 as meaning that Jesus literally pre-existed in eternity past and he was literally SLAIN before or from the foundation of the world. But rather, all Christians know and understand that God has a PLAN of salvation that was kept secret from the foundation of the earth. And that part of God’s plan of salvation was for His Messiah to be slain on the cross as an innocent spotless Lamb offered to God as a sacrifice to redeem mankind back to himself. Please read the following verses of Scripture.


Matthew 13:34,35.

 

“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (WHY? Why did Jesus speak in parables?)

35.  That it might be FULFILLED which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

 

Mark 4:22,23.

 

“For there is nothing hidden, (Or there is NOTHING that was kept secret from the foundation of the world) which shall not be MANIFESTED; (Meaning BOTH fulfilled, and clearly made known) neither was anything kept secret, but that it should come abroad. (Meaning BOTH come to pass and made clearly known)

23.  If any man has ears to hear, let him hear.”

 

Now read Romans 16:25-27. 

 

 “Now to Him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the REVELATION of the mystery, (Or according to the true REVELATION of the MYSTERY of gospel of Jesus Christ)  which was kept secret since the world began

26.  But NOW is made MANIFEST, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

27.  To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.”

 


Some Christians may be wondering and asking the question of what these verses of Scripture have to do with Almighty God the Father loving His Son Jesus BEFORE the foundation of the world? And the answer is that Jesus is the FULFILLMENT of the hidden PROPHECIES in the Scriptures. It is no longer hidden as to WHO the Messiah IS. According to the revelation of the gospel which means “good news”, Christians now KNOW the SECRET that was kept hidden from the foundation of the world. And that mystery or that which was kept secret was MANIFESTED in the flesh, as Jesus the Christ who was MADE both Christ and Lord by the ONLY wise God, Yahweh the Father.

So then, in the same way, that Almighty God PLANNED in His MIND to have His Messiah SLAIN before the foundation of the word, God ALSO loved Jesus before His firstborn Son was ever born. And God hid His LOVE for His yet future Messiah in the Scriptures of PROPHECY.

 

Please read  Jeremiah 1:5.

 

BEFORE I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.”

 

Now, some Christians may argue that this is NOT a prophecy of Jesus and that God is speaking these words to Jeremiah the prophet. But Jeremiah was a prophet to the ONE nation of Israel and not a prophet to the nations in the plural. Also, when you read this verse from the LITERAL translation then you can clearly see that this is a PROPHECY of Jesus coming into existence as the fulfillment of prophecy that was kept secret or hidden in the Scriptures from the foundation of the world.

 

Here is the LITERAL translation of Jeremiah 1:4,5.

 

“And he is becoming word of Yahweh to me to say of (To say of WHAT? To PROPHESY of the word of Yahweh that is becoming FLESH in the womb of a virgin)

5. Before I am forming you, (Or before I am conforming you into my image of righteousness, training you in the way you should go) I am forming you in the belly I knew you, and before you are coming forth from the womb I sanctified you, prophet to the nations I gave you.”

 

In other words, Yahweh gave these words of prophecy to Jeremiah to PROPHESY of God’s yet coming Prophet, Jesus, the Messiah. Jesus said that the Scriptures spoke of him. God declares the END from the beginning. God calls things that are not yet as though they already are. With this in mind, let us go back and read John 17:24 in its CONTEXT and focus on other words to learn its true sound Biblical meaning in the light of the whole word of Almighty God. As you read this passage of Scripture, please notice that this is BEFORE the cross, but yet, Jesus speaks in the PAST tense.

 

Please read John 17:11-26.

 

And NOW I am NO MORE IN the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, (But yet, Jesus is still on the earth. This prayer of Jesus to the Father is before the cross but Jesus speaks AS IF he is already in heaven with the Father) keep through Your own name those whom You have given me, that they may be one, AS WE are. (One) 

12.  While I WAS with them in the world, I kept them in Your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; THAT the Scripture might be FULFILLED

13.  And now come I to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 

14.  I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are NOT of the world, EVEN AS I am not of the world

15.  I pray not that You should take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil. 

16.  They are NOT of the world, EVEN AS I am not of the world

17.  Sanctify them through Your truth: Your word is truth. 

18.  AS You have SENT me INTO the world, EVEN SO have I also SENT them INTO the world. (God sent the Son of MAN, Jesus INTO the world after his baptism by John the Baptist which is WHEN God ANOINTED Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power. Jesus told his disciples to WAIT in Jerusalem UNTIL they are ENDUED with POWER from on high, speaking of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

19  And for their sakes, I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 

20.  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

21.  That they all may be one; AS You, Father, are IN me, and I IN You, that they ALSO may be ONE IN us: that the world may believe that You have sent me. 

22.  And the glory which You gave me I have given them; (Again, Jesus is speaking in past tense AS IF God has already glorified him but yet Jesus was not glorified until AFTER the cross. Also, we are NOT of this world in the same way that Jesus is NOT of this world. And we will be ONE with the Father and His Son in the SAME way that Jesus and the Father are ONE) that they may be one, EVEN AS we are one

23.  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them, AS You have loved me. (In other words, Father, you have loved them BEFORE the foundation of the world EVEN AS you have loved me BEFORE the foundation of the world)

24.  Father, I will that they also, whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which You have given me: for You loved me before the foundation of the world

25.  O righteous Father, the world has not known You: but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me. 

26.  And I have declared unto them Your name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith You have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” 

 

 

God loved us WHILE we were yet sinners. In other words, God loved us before we were born-again from above by the word of God to become the sons of God. God loved the Gentiles before God turned to the Gentiles with the preaching of the gospel. The ALL of whosoever will be saved was in the mind and PLAN of God before God ever created Adam and Eve. But God’s Messiah was at the CENTER of His thoughts and plans to be the CHIEF or the head of us who will be JOINT-HEIRS with Jesus to inherit the worlds yet to come.

Yes, I agree that there are some verses in the gospel of John that may SEEM to be saying that Jesus literally pre-existed in eternity past. However, when those verses of Scripture are correctly interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God then they can clearly be seen as the FULFILLMENT of God’s spoken word of PROPHECY. One of the most famous verses, outside of John 1:1, that is used to try and prove that Jesus pre-existed is John 17:5 where Jesus is asking the Father to glorify him with the glory that he had BEFORE the world existed.


Please read John 17:5.

 

“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”

 


Now again, when one views this one verse ALONE and APART from the REST of God's word it does indeed SEEM to some Christians to be saying that Jesus literally PRE-EXISTED before the world was created. And thus, they conclude that Jesus must have pre-existed in eternity past as God the Son, the second person of the triune God who with Almighty God the Father as a SEPARATE BEING or person from Almighty God the Father. In other words, Trinitarian Christians INTERPRET John 17:5 as Jesus sharing the GLORY that with Almighty God Father Himself in eternity past. Then, according to some Christians, God the Son stripped himself of this glory which he had in eternity past, and he is asking God to RESTORE his former glory back to him.  

So then, when Christians are DOGMATICALLY TAUGHT that these verses can ONLY mean what their church denomination interprets them to mean. then HOW ELSE could they see anything other than Jesus having literal pre-existing glory with the Father BEFORE the world WAS if he did not literally PRE-EXIST before the FOUNDATION of the world?

You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, when one hears ONLY ONE teaching and that teaching is DOGMATICALLY DEMANDED to be the ONLY possible meaning, then the hearer and the teacher as well develop what I call TUNNEL vision. In other words, they become so focused on that ONE INTERPRETATION of those verses which they have been TAUGHT, that at times, that is the ONLY interpretation that they can see. And that is because of their FOCUS being only on the ASSUMPTION of what they were taught as being the ONLY possible meaning of that verse.

This is why we must interpret the unclear verses in the light of the clear, plain, and simple verses that do not need to be interpreted. So what do we do when verses of Scripture such as John 17:24 and John 17:5 seem to be clear, plain, and simple verses that do not need any interpretation to understand what they are saying? Well, we do not do anything UNLESS we begin seeing that other clear, plain, and simple verses CONTRADICT the verses of Scripture that seem to also be clear, plain, and simple verses of Scripture. And this is why we must keep the verses in QUESTION in their CONTEXT. This is why we must COMPARE Scriptures with Scriptures to see if the INTERPRETATION we have concluded AGREES with the WHOLE word of God.

So then, if John 17:5 does NOT mean that Jesus LITERALLY PRE-EXISTED in eternity past, then WHAT does it mean? What does the Bible ITSELF teach us what these words of Jesus truly mean in both John 17:24 and John 17:5?

When these two verses and other verses of Scripture as well are interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God, then it becomes clear that Jesus not only UNDERSTOOD the SCRIPTURES, but also, that Jesus knew that the Scriptures spoke OF HIM as being the one prophesied to come. In other words, Jesus understood of the glory that the SON OF God would be glorified with by the Father that was prophesied from the BEGINNING as being a PROMISE. Jesus understood that the Scriptures spoke of HIM. Hebrews 12:2 teaches us that God set a JOY before the Son of MAN, Jesus to ENDURE the cross much like the PROMISE of eternal life is set before us to endure unto the end.

 

Please read Hebrews 12:2.

 

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR the JOY that was SET before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

 

This verse of Scripture does not specifically tell us what the “JOY” set before Jesus is but there are many things prophesied that God would give His Messiah. The joy could be ALL of the prophecies, including the glory that God shared with him after the cross. Before we get into some of those PROPHECIES of Jesus being LOVED by Yahweh the Father BEFORE Jesus was brought into existence at the virgin birth, let us read the verses that speak of the baptism of Jesus. I will just quote one of those verses. As you read Matthew 12:18, I want you to notice how the Father was WELL PLEASED with His BELOVED Son BEFORE the Son of man, Jesus ever starting his work in the ministry. And the reasons for this are many. To name a few, God had FAITH in the Son of MAN, Jesus. God had been TRAINING the Son of man from the womb. God declared the end from the beginning through prophecy. Yahweh watches over His spoken word of prophecy to PERFORM it. God prophesied that He would HELP His servant. Please read the FULFILLMENT of prophecy first, and then we will read the prophecy of that fulfillment in the Old Testament.

 

Here is the fulfillment in Matthew 12:18.  

 

“Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.”

 

This is actually a FULFILLMENT of the prophecy found in Isaiah chapter 42. As you read the prophecy notice the FAITH of God as He makes declarations of faith declaring what will be. God declared that His soul would DELIGHT in His servant BEFORE His servant was ever born.

 

Please read Isaiah 42;1-9.

 

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 

2.  He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 

3.  A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 

4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he has set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 

5.  Thus says God the LORD, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: (Clearly, Almighty God Yahweh is the creator)

6.  I the LORD have called YOU in righteousness, (Or I Yahweh have called YOU, Jesus, to walk in righteousness) and will hold your hand, and will keep you, and give you for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; (Here in this verse of prophecy we can see WHEN God SENT Jesus INTO the world. God CALLED the Son of MAN, Jesus to preach. God ANOINTED Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power. And then God GAVE the Son of MAN, Jesus to die on the cross to establish the New Covenant that would include the Gentiles. Jesus read another passage of Scripture in Isaiah 61:1,2 that is very similar to this passage at the very beginning of his ministry telling the Jews EXACTLY WHO he is by saying THIS SCRIPTURE IS FULFILLED in your ears. Please read Luke 4:17-21. “And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 

Luke 4:18.  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 

Luke 4:19.  To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 

Luke 4:20.  And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 

Luke 4:21.  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.” Yahweh ANOINTED the Son of MAN, Jesus, who could do NOTHING OF himself, with the Holy Spirit and power)

7  To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 

8.  I am the LORD: that is MY name: and MY glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (According to the context, Yahweh is introducing His Messiah that He has prophesied to ANOINT. So this verse is saying I am Yahweh: he name of me or my chosen servant have I given my NAME and MY glory will I not give to another. He is my BELOVED Son and IN him I am well pleased to give my fullness to dwell in him bodily to rule for me during my Sabbath rest in the world yet to come)

9.  Behold, the former things are come to pass, and NEW THINGS do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

 

I believe that verse 9 also includes the dethroning of Lucifer as the God of the earth as being one of the “former things”. And one of the NEW THINGS is God PROMOTING the Son of MAN, Jesus to replace Lucifer and the God of the whole earth. Please read the studies under the heading >>>WHY ARE WE HERE-IS GOD AT WAR?<<< But for now, let us take a look at a prophecy of ABRAHAM. Remember the words of Jesus saying BEFORE Abraham I am while you read Genesis 18:17-19 please notice the FAITH that God had in Abraham.

 

Genesis 18:17-19. 

 

“And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 

18  Seeing that Abraham shall SURELY BECOME a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 

19.  For I KNOW him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; THAT the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which He has SPOKEN of him.” 

 

Jesus was in the mind and plan of Yahweh to bring into existence BEFORE Yahweh finished contriving His so great a plan of salvation. Jesus was also prophesied BEFORE God prophesied things concerning Abraham. And Jesus was prophesied to be BEFORE Abraham, as in, ABOVE Abraham. And that is what Jesus intended his words to mean in John 8:58. For all the verses as to WHY I believe this to be the true sound Biblical meaning of John 8:58 please read the study “JOHN 8:58 BEFORE ABRAHAM I AM!” But for now, let us continue section 2 of this study on John 17:26 to clearly show that it does NOT prove that Jesus literally pre-existed.

 

SECTION TWO OF JOHN 17:24.

 

Here is section 2 we will cover Proverbs 8:22-31 which is also used to TRY and prove that Jesus pre-existed. But it TRUTH, this passage of Scripture actually DISPROVES the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of Oneness. Keep in mind that when Jesus read the Scriptures he knew that the Scripture spoke of him as being the Messiah. So when the Son of MAN, Jesus, read Proverbs chapter 8, then Jesus saw and understood the THOUGHTS and PLANS of Almighty God. Jesus saw how Yahweh’s yet future Son would REJOICE before Him in the inhabitable part of the earth BEFORE the earth was ever created for mankind to inhabit.

Please take a CLOSE look at Proverbs 8:22-31. I will highlight all the words and pronouns referring to Yahweh the Father in orange. And I will highlight the prophecies referring to Jesus in yellow. The other highlighted words are for emphasis.

 

Here is a CLOSE look at Proverbs 8:22-31 verse by verse.

 

Proverbs 8:22.

 

“The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before His works of old.”

 

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 22. Some Christians incorrectly interpret verses in the New Testament as Jesus CREATING all things which they claim proves that Jesus is Yahweh Himself.

But IF one interprets Proverbs 8:22-31 as Jesus literally pre-existing in eternity past, then they ALSO must be consistent in their interpreting of the Scriptures as Yahweh ALONE and by Himself as being the creator. For you see, IF this passage of Scripture was intended to mean that Jesus literally pre-existed then this passage of Scripture PROVES that Jesus did NOT lift one finger to create ANYTHING. I will point this out as we get to the verses where Jesus is WATCHING Yahweh doing the creating.

 

“22. The LORD (Referring to YAHWEH the Lord God Almighty, who we know is the FATHER alone)

possessed ME (Speaking of Yahweh possessing Jesus. The word POSSESSED means to acquire, to procure with great care and effort, to create, and to bring forth into existence. This word also means to purchase, and to redeem. In other words, God is revealing His THOUGHTS to us of His yet future Son) in the beginning of HIS way, ( Or more precisely, God is making plans for His Son to be the CHIEF of His WAY. All of the meanings of God “possessing” His Son speak of ACQUIRING his SON in the future. So Proverbs chapter 8 is actually teaching us that Jesus not only had a BEGINNING but also, that this passage of Scripture is PROPHECY of yet a future fulfillment concerning Jesus. Proverbs 8:22-31 does NOT teach us of a literal PRE-EXISTING Jesus. In other words. Yahweh acquired WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING which were the THOUGHTS of one day having a righteous Son whom He would highly exalt to become His King of kings and Lord of lords. When you truly take a closer look at Proverbs 8:22-31 in the LIGHT of the entire chapter then you can see that God FORMED THOUGHTS within himself as an IMAGE in His MIND)  before HIS WORKS of old.” 

 

The meaning of the word “WORKS” here LITERALLY means PRECEDING his CONTRIVANCES of old. And this word contrivance means that God had his Son in MIND preceding his CLEVERLY DEVISED ingenious PLAN. And God’s PLAN of SALVATION was to have an INNOCENT MAN be SLAIN without cause so that Yahweh could redeem or buy back his creation called the HUMANS that he has not yet created PRECEDING the foundation of the world. And the Hebrew word that is translated as “of OLD” also means Yahweh’s works “AT THAT TIME” Please read the study “WHAT DOES THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD TRULY MEAN?” 

You see dear children of God, the creation account in Genesis chapter 1 is the RESTORING of the earth some 6,000 years ago and NOT the first original creation of the earth in eternity past. God created a NEW species of beings called the humans a little lower or inferior to his previous creation the ANGELS to replace the 1/3 of the angels that rebelled and made war against God under the leadership of Lucifer who is now known as Satan or the Devil. And Proverbs 8:22-31 is a prophecy that is revealing to us a PART of God's ingenious plan of salvation and to also prove that He created Lucifer perfect in all his ways. And thus, God will clear His own name for His own sake that was being defamed by the false accusation from Lucifer BLAMING God for his own pride-filled sin saying that God created him evil. And thus, according to Satan, it was not his fault that he attacked God’s throne to try and exalt his throne above the stars of God to be like Yahweh. And, therefore, in Satan’s mind, God has no right to judge him. Please read all the studies under the heading >>>WHY ARE WE HERE-IS GOD AT WAR?<<< These studies teach the BIG picture of WHY God even created the human race. And they cover many of the verses that answer many questions Christian have such as WHY does God allow evil in the world? 

Please understand that this verse here in Proverbs chapter 8, like all verses in the Bible, must be interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God and AGREE with the rest of God's word. If one interprets this verse alone and apart from the rest of God's word it may SEEM that Jesus was brought forth BEFORE the foundation of the world in eternity past and that God’s Son LITERALLY pre-existed by the side of God as a SECOND person or divine eternal being as God the Son. However, in the light of the WHOLE word of God,  you will see that the correct meaning of this verse is that Jesus is God’s FIRST DESIRE WITHIN Himself to have a RIGHTEOUS SON to replace Lucifer as the caretaker of the earth BEFORE God begins re-creating or preparing a HABITABLE PLACE on the earth FOR His yet future Son. 

For you see, the earth BECAME void and empty during the Luciferian flood that ended that stage of the war between Lucifer and Yahweh. You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, when you read Proverbs 22-31 as Yahweh preparing a place for His yet future Son, then you can see Yahweh like we see proud EXPECTING parents awaiting their unborn child while they are PREPARING a room for their YET COMING child. Let us continue with verse 23.

 

Proverbs 8:23.

 

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth WAS.”

 

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 23.

 

“23. I was set up (This Hebrew word translated as “set up” has several meanings. One meaning is that God INAUGURATED his yet future Son or God APPOINTED his yet future Son to be His King of kings during the Millennial age. And Yahweh planned and prophesied His plan of salvation) FROM everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth WAS.” 

 

Also, the Hebrew word translated as “set up” in the King James version, carries the meaning of being POURED OUT as a drink offering is poured out. So when we take this meaning and we compare it to the Scriptures that teach us that Jesus is the LAMB that was SLAIN from BEFORE the foundation of the world, then we can see that Proverbs 8:22-31 is a PROPHECY about a YET FUTURE fulfillment from the time it was SPOKEN by God and then written down by men of old. 

We all KNOW that Jesus was NOT LITERALLY SLAIN BEFORE the foundation of the world. And in the same way, Jesus did NOT LITERALLY PRE-EXIST by the side of God BEFORE the foundation of the world. But rather, the SON OF God only existed in God's MIND as an IMAGE WITHIN God before the foundation of the world. So then, it was AS IF his Son was BY his side where God had WITHIN him an IMAGE of his yet FUTURE Son before the foundation of the world. 

You may not agree with this interpretation as yet, so I ask that you please humor me and read these verses seeing God as a proud parent EXPECTING his yet UNBORN child. At least try and see these verses as God preparing a place, as in, restoring the destroyed earth to once again be HABITABLE, FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet future unborn SON to INHERIT, who is yet to be brought into existence as the spoken word of prophecy made flesh and then glorified after the cross because of his love for righteousness. 

Now let us look at the last part of verse 23 to learn WHEN Jesus was inaugurated as King and SET UP.

 

“23. ...FROM everlasting, FROM the beginning, or ever the earth WAS.”   

 

The words “from everlasting” comes from two Hebrew words. Here are the strong’s numbers so you can see the compound word translated as “from everlasting”. 

“I was set up H5258 from everlasting, H4480 H5769…”

And here is how E-Sword defines these two words.

 

H4480

מִנֵּי    מִנִּי      מִן

min    minnı̂y    minnêy

min, min-nee', min-nay'

For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

 

H5769

עֹלָם    עוֹלָם

‛ôlâm    ‛ôlâm

o-lawm', o-lawm'

From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

 

Let us put together what we have so far before we look at the rest of verse 23. Yahweh devised a plan to set things back in order BECAUSE OF something that happened a long time ago in ancient times to the earth. God’s yet future Son was appointed to be King BECAUSE OF what happened BEFORE the earth was RESTORED to be INHABITABLE once again.

Now let us look at the rest of that last part of verse 23 to learn WHY Jesus was inaugurated as King and SET UP.

 

“23. ...FROM everlasting, FROM the beginning, or ever the earth WAS.”  

 

 The Hebrew word translated as “from the BEGINNING” also means to SHAKE. It also means the head and the RULER. So because of what happened to the earth a long time ago by reason of the SHAKING of the earth and its ruler, Lucifer is WHY God devised a plan to highly exalt His firstborn Son in the future to be a king above the kings of the earth to REPLACE Lucifer as the God of the whole earth.

Keep in mind that I am interpreting Proverbs 8:22-31 by its CONTEXT and in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. I am using the OTHER meanings of the Hebrew words that best fit the WHOLE word of God. Here is how E-Sword defines the Hebrew word translated “from the beginning”.


H7218

רֹאשׁ

rô'sh

roshe

From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literally or figuratively (in many applications, of place, time, rank, etc.): - band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief (-est place, man, things), company, end, X every [man], excellent, first, forefront, ([be-]) head, height, (on) high (-est part, [priest]), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.

 

In other words, there was ANOTHER “beginning” where God RESTORED the earth to be habitable again AFTER God SHOOK the earth and its RULER, Lucifer because of his rebellion to make war with his creator to take over Yahweh's throne. Let us continue with verse 24.

 

 

Proverbs 8:24.

 

“24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.” 

 

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 24.

Clearly, no matter how one interprets the rest of Proverbs chapter 8, Jesus was brought forth into existence which proves that God’s Son did NOT always pre-exist without ever having a beginning. And that means that the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT sound Biblical teaching.

But in the light of the rest of God’s word concerning the earth BECAME void by the judgment of God to FLOOD the earth to bring the war to a stand-still was the “WHEN” that Yahweh contrived His ingenious plan of salvation. Let us read verse 24 again. 

 

“24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; (The phrase, “when there were no depths”, means the time after the floodwaters ceased to be poured out. In other words, God lifts His wrath after bringing the war to a stand-still. The LITERAL meaning of this word “brought forth” means TRAVAILED as a woman in labor pains about to BIRTH a yet unborn child. This word also means to WAIT PATIENTLY or to look forward to with patience. This again, teaches us that Jesus, the SON OF God, was still yet WITHIN the God, who was anxiously AWAITING his Son to be brought forth or born of the Virgin Mary. And then God’s FIRSTBORN Son from the dead would forever be God's ETERNAL Son by his right-hand side LITERALLY. 

So all these words in this passage of Scripture teach us that Jesus was BEING brought forth in the MIND of God as part of God's CONTRIVANCE to prove to Lucifer, the fallen angels, and to the good angels, as well, that ALL that God creates is PERFECT in the day He created the. And, therefore, Yahweh has every right to judge Lucifer and the fallen angels. And all this is taking place in God's MIND BEFORE the recreation of the earth that was destroyed or made waste in the WAR between God and the fallen angels who were trying to take over God's throne. Again please read all of the studies under the heading >>>WHY ARE WE HERE-IS GOD AT WAR?<<< And in those studies you will find all the verses that show what I am saying about this war or rebellion of Lucifer and the fallen angels. But for now, please understand that God was TRAVAILING or if you will PREGNANT with his yet unborn SON) when there were no fountains abounding with water.”

    

And this last phrase in verse 24 means after the flooding ceased and the earth was still yet flooded there were no satisfying fountains of spring waters as yet was WHEN God contrived His plan of RESTORATION of all things.

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 25.

 

Proverbs 8:25. 

    

“25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:” 

 

The meaning of brought forth is the same as above. So again, this means that Jesus was yet in the womb of God's MIND and deep DESIRE WITHIN Himself BEING brought forth into existence by the spoken word of PROPHECY that would be fulfilled in stages. Remember Exodus 3:14 where God says in the King James Version, “I AM THAT I AM”, which LITERALLY means I SHALL BECOME WHO I AM BECOMING In other words, the whole Bible is about God ENDING evil and replacing evil with a NEW creation of RIGHTEOUS people who will never rebel against God.

The word translated as “before” also means not yet. And the meaning of the mountains being settled means that when the mountains were not yet being drowned or flooded before the mountains and hills could be seen again, I was BROUGHT FORTH in the mind and plan of God as His WAY to restore righteousness in the earth. Let us move to verse 26.

 

Proverbs 8:26.

 

While as yet He had NOT made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.”

     

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 26.    

 

“26. While as yet HE (Almighty God) had NOT made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.” 

 

Now, those who teach the PRE-EXISTENCE of Jesus also teach that Jesus HIMSELF created ALL things. But yet, ALL the verses in the OLD Testament CLEARLY and PLAINLY in SIMPLICITY teach us that Almighty God Himself ALONE and by HIMSELF created ALL things. Please read the study EPHESIANS 3:9 DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS? for a sound Biblical teaching letting the Bible speak for ITSELF. And the Bible itself clearly shows that Almighty God HIMSELF created ALL things FOR or FOR the SAKE of his SON Jesus, just like Proverbs 8:22-31 is teaching us. Again, all the accounts of creation in the Bible are speaking of [a] beginning and NOT [the] beginning in eternity past. Please read the study “WHAT DOES JOHN 1:1 TRULY MEAN?” And for a better understanding why Proverbs 8:22-31 is speaking of god RESTORING the earth please read all the studies under the heading >>>WHY ARE WE HERE-IS GOD AT WAR?<<<

But for now, please know that the word translated as “earth” also means LAND. So before God made the DRY Land appear and the highest part of the DUST of the earth to be dry again is WHEN God planned to have a Messiah. God did not wait until Adam sinned to contrive His plan of salvation. Jesus was SLAIN in the mind and plan of God BEFORE the foundation of the world. God already knew the REWARDS He would give to those who endure unto the end to be saved before God restored the earth to be habitable once again. This brings us to verse 27.

 

Proverbs 8:27.

 

“When He prepared the heavens, I was there: when He set a compass upon the face of the depth:”

      

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 27. 

  

“27. When HE (Almighty God alone and by Himself) prepared the heavens, I was there (Meaning that Jesus was there, as in, God yet future Son was in His THOUGHTS and DESIRES WITHIN Yahweh Himself as if his yet unborn Son was literally by his side while HE was PREPARING a place FOR ME to INHERIT. Remember that God is prophesying these words TO His yet future Son, so that when the Son of MAN read these words, he would know how much his God and Father LOVES him. That is why this passage of Scripture is written in the first person as if Jesus was actually there speaking these words. But as you will see in a moment by the CONTEXT, Jesus was NOT actually brought into existence yet) when HE set a compass upon the face of the depth:”

 

The LITERAL meaning of God setting a COMPASS upon the face of the deep is “INTO DELINEATE OF HIM”. This means that God was drawing out, sketching out, making a blueprint, designing WITHIN Himself in his THOUGHTS, and IMAGINING how He would prepare a place for his yet unborn SON. The word DELINEATE also means to PICTURE as WORDS or to PORTRAY in WORDS. To say this another way, God was PICTURING in his MIND within Himself FORMING words WITHIN Himself to portray the exact IMAGE of His yet future Messiah. That FORM of His future Messiah was WITHIN Himself before the restoring of the earth to yet bring it forth into existence, WHILE Jesus, his yet unborn Son, was the CENTER of this IMAGE that God had within himself. God was designing a PORTRAIT of the IMAGE within himself to CREATE His Messiah a little lower and INFERIOR to the angels for a REASON. And that reason is so that an INFERIOR human will JUDGE the fallen angels as guilty as charged so that the good angels will know that Yahweh is a just and righteous God. Again, notice that Yahweh alone and by Himself is the one doing the recreating of the earth. Let us move to verse 28.

 

Proverbs 8:28.

 

“When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep:”

 

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 28.

  Again, notice that Yahweh is doing ALL the creating. I keep saying this because some Christians interpret the phrase “I was THERE” in verse 27 as Jesus literally pre-existing in eternity past. And every Christian that believes and teaches that Jesus pre-existed in eternity past ALSO teach that Jesus IS the CREATOR who created all things based upon their INCORRECT interpretations of a few verses in the New Testament. Please read all the studies under the heading >>>IS JESUS THE CREATOR?<<< 

But for now, I would like you to consider a dual meaning of verses 28, and 29. The Hebrew word translated as “established” the clouds above also means to PREVAIL. So picture God being at WAR with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels that joined Lucifer to try and take over God’s throne. This is no small war. Satan drew ONE-THIRD of the angels to his side. That only leaves two good angels to fight each fallen angel. Anyway, God PREVAILS to push back all the fallen angels that are ABOVE the clouds to the earth to restrict them to the atmosphere of the earth.

The Hebrew word translated as “strengthened” the fountains of the deep also means to PREVAIL. The word translated as fountains also means the eye, the knowledge, and the outward appearance. The word deep means the abyss. In other words, God not only prevailed over all the fallen angels ABOVE the clouds, He also PREVAILED over their plans to regroup and attack God’s throne again. For you see, God had many of the fallen angels BOUND in CHAINS in the abyss or the bottomless pit. 

 

Please read Jude 1:6. 

 

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

  

Now let us continue with verse 29 to see how verse 28, and verse 29 tie together with dual meanings. Go ahead and read verse 28 again with the meaning of god PREVAILING over the fallen angels.

    

“28: When HE established the clouds above: when HE strengthened the fountains of the deep:”

         

Proverbs 8:29.

 

“29. When HE gave to the sea HIS decree, that the waters should not pass HIS commandment: when HE appointed the foundations of the earth:”

 

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 29.

 

“29. When HE gave to the sea (The word “SEA” in Bible prophecy refers to the wicked. So the hidden meaning of this phrase is that Yahweh gave to Satan and the fallen angels) HIS decree, that the waters (The word “waters” in Bible prophecy speaks of people and multitudes. So God is setting LIMITS to Satan and the fallen angels that they are to go so far and no further. Meaning that Satan and the fallen angels) should not pass HIS commandment: when HE appointed (DESIGNED or delineated in Himself ) the foundations of the earth:”

    

The word “foundations” of the earth does NOT mean  LITERAL foundations. This word speaks of the RULES that God ordained. It also spiritually means that God has APPOINTED only RIGHTEOUS people to be the PILLARS of the earth. Again, not literal pillars, but rather RULERS over the earth in the world to come.

Some of you may still not yet see that Proverbs 8:22-31 is PROPHECY of a yet future Son that has been fulfilled in Jesus. So let us continue with verse 30.

 

Proverbs 8:30.

 

“Then I was by Him, AS ONE brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him;”

 

Now let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 30.     

 

“30. Then I was BY Him, AS ONE brought up WITH Him:

 

Now these last two verses, verse 30, and verse 31, which we still need to read, clearly teach us that this passage of Scripture is a PROPHECY of the future fulfillment of God's SON being brought forth into existence. Please notice that it was AS IF Jesus was by his side WHILE God Himself was PREPARING the world FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet unborn Son. Please notice in the next verse that Jesus was REJOICING IN the habitable part of the EARTH that had NOT YET been created as yet, but was still yet in the MIND and PLAN of God WITHIN himself yet to be brought forth into existence) and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him;”

  

But before we read verse 31, I want to cover the other meanings of the Hebrew words in verse 30. The Hebrew word translated as “BY” Him literally means in the sense of JOINING Him. Here is how E-Sword defines this Hebrew word.

 

H681

אֵצֶל

'êtsel

ay'-tsel

From H680 (in the sense of joining); a side; (as a preposition) near: - at, (hard) by, (from) (beside), near (unto), toward, with. See also H1018.

 

And the Hebrew word translated as I “WAS” by Him means “TO BECOME”. So again, this is a PROPHECY of Yahwehs yet future Son coming into existence to JOIN Yahweh at Yahweh's right hand. The word “brought up” means TRAINING. The Son of MAN, Jesus was TAUGHT how to refuse the evil and to choose the good.

Here is how E-Sword defines the Hebrew word translated as “WAS” by Him in Proverbs 8:30.

 

הָיָה

hâyâh

haw-yaw'

A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

 

And here is how E-Sword defines the Hebrew word that is translated “as one brought up with him”

 

H525

אָמוֹן

'âmôn

aw-mone'

From H539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like H542): - one brought up.

 

Here is where it really gets interesting! What was Jesus in training FOR? What is the END fulfillment of PROPHECY? Where is Jesus NOW? He is at the RIGHT HAND of the Father. Now let us read the meaning of the root word of the Hebrew word translated as one brought up which means in the sense of training that person being raised for some purpose in the future.

 

H539

אָמַן

'âman

aw-man'

A primitive root; properly to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (in Isa_30:21; by interchange for H541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, steadfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right.

 

 Now let us put all these meanings together before we read Proverbs 8:31. Here is verse 30 with the more precise meanings.

 

Proverbs 8:30.

 

“30. Then I was BY Him, AS ONE brought up WITH Him : (Or more precisely, I am becoming to be existing to JOIN Him at his right-hand side. I am becoming to be existing AS ONE being Fathered by Him as a foster child to be trained in the way that I should go for the purpose of being seated at His right hand) and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him;”

 

Or more precisely, there is becoming a DAY, as in, an AGE from one sunset to the next sunset, that I will be His DELIGHT rejoicing the whole time before him. Now let us read Proverbs 8:31 to see WHEN that AGE will be.

 

Proverbs 8:31.

 

“31. Rejoicing IN the HABITABLE part of His EARTH; and my delights were with the sons of men.”

 

How could Proverbs 8:22-31 possibly mean that Jesus pre-existed in eternity past when verse 31 clearly teaches us that Jesus is rejoicing before Yahweh IN the HABITABLE part of the earth when Yahweh had not yet restored the earth to be HABITABLE once again? To me, the only way that this is possible is for Jesus to be in the MIND and PLAN of God to bring forth into existence for the purpose of being inaugurated as His King of kings and Lord of lords to JOIN Him to be seated at His right-hand side to rule for Yahweh in the world to come.

When you read the ENTIRE chapter 8 of Proverbs then you can clearly see that Jesus is being personified as being WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING that Yahweh ACQUIRED at the beginning of His WAY. Please see the FULL verse by verse study on the whole chapter of Proverbs chapter 8 called “WHAT DOES PROVERBS 8:22-31 TRULY MEAN?” But for now, let us take a closer look at the meanings of different words in verse 31.

                        

“31. Rejoicing IN the HABITABLE part of His EARTH; and my delights were with the sons of men.”

 

Again, these last two verses, verse 30 and verse 31, clearly teach us that Proverb 8:22-31 is a PROPHECY of God’s yet coming Son of MAN to be His Messiah. For you see, we see Jesus rejoicing in the EARTH that has NOT YET been CREATED.

Let us take an even CLOSER look at the LITERAL meanings of some of these words in these last two verses. The LITERAL translation of Proverbs 8:30, 31.

 

Here is the LITERAL translation of Proverbs 8:30,31.

 

“And I was beside him FOSTER CHILD and I was delectation day day one GAMBOLING to faces of him all of time.

31. One GAMBOLING inhabiting of earth of him and delectation of me the sons of humans.”

 

So then, ALL OF THE TIME WHILE God was PREPARING the uninhabitable earth the became void and empty to become inhabitable FOR His yet unborn Son, God was PORTRAYING or painting a portrait in his MIND. Yahweh was forming an IMAGE of His yet future God to replace Lucifer. But first God was PICTURING His yet future unborn SON GAMBOLING in the restored EARTH that God is yet PREPARING FOR or FOR the SAKE OF His yet unborn FOSTER child. And God was DELIGHTING over His yet coming into being unborn Son declaring the END from the beginning.

Now, some hardcore Trinitarian Christians may not agree with my interpretation of Proverbs 8:22-31 as being a PROPHECY of God’s yet future Son to be born of a virgin but at least most of my readers can see that, IF SO BE the Jesus literally pre-existed in eternity past, he did not lift one finger to CREATE anything. But rather, according to Proverbs 8:22-31, Jesus WATCHED Yahweh do the CREATING. So how do Trinitarians reconcile their INTERPRETATION of some New Testament verses to mean that Jesus created ALL THINGS? Or that God created all things BY or THROUGH God the Son? For the correct sound Biblical true meaning of those New Testament verses that SEEM to be saying that Jesus is the creator, please read all the studies under the heading >>>IS JESUS THE CREATOR?<<< 

When we see Jesus as being a FOSTER child first being born as fully human void of any divine nature then we can see the TRUE meaning of being ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit and power from on high. But when we see Jesus as being fully God and fully man at the same time then the TRUE meaning of being ANOINTED is lost. In other words, both Trinitarian Christians and Oneness Christians see Jesus as being fully Almighty God Himself in the flesh having TWO natures at the same time, one divine and one human. And when you see Jesus as being fully Almighty God Himself then how can you TRULY believe that you can follow the steps of Jesus to live YOUR life without sin? But when you see Jesus as your BROTHER and your fellow servant who was anointed with the SAME anointing that YOU have then you can truly have faith to BELIEVE that YOU can do the SAME words that Jesus did THOUGH the power of the Holy Spirit who dwelt in him. 

The word “FOSTER” is NOt a bad word. It simply means to raise up a child that is NOT OF your own blood. And in this case, Yahweh FOSTERED a child that was NOT of his own God's OWN DIVINE NATURE, as yet. You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, when Almighty God Himself brought his Son into existence God stripped His divine word which is Spirit nature of ALL his DIVINE nature to take on HUMAN NATURE. Please read the study WHAT DOES GOD INCARNATE TRULY MEAN? for what the BIBLE ITSELF teaches and NOT what the mainstream churches teach. And then, AFTER the cross the Son of MAN, Jesus BECAME God’s ETERNAL Son to be made a partaker of the DIVINE NATURE of immortality. For you see, Jesus did not take on the divine nature of Almighty God Father by becoming IMMORTAL, until AFTER his death and resurrection. That is when his God and Father GAVE the Son of MAN, Jesus, immortality, or eternal life, the same LIFE that the Father has always possessed in Himself. 

 

Please read John 5:26,27.

 

For AS the Father HAS life IN himself; so has He GIVEN TO the Son to have life in himself

27.  And has GIVEN him authority to execute judgment also, BECAUSE he is the Son of MAN.”

 

Everything that Jesus IS and has was GIVEN TO him NOT because Jesus IS Almighty God HIMSELF. And NOT because Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God. But rather, BECAUSE Jesus was the Son of MAN. 

Let us get back closely examining Proverbs 8:22-31 by going even deeper into the meaning of verse 30 and 31 so that we see God delighting over his Son. When we delight over someone that means that we LOVE that person. The root word from which this Hebrew word translated as “DELIGHTING”  in the original text comes from means to DANDLE. And the English word to dandle means to bounce up and down on one's knee, or to bounce in one's cradled arms that brings so much JOY to the one doing the dandling. 

I can envision that JOY that Yahweh had for his yet unborn FOSTER son WHILE He was restoring the earth to be habitable again FOR the sake of His future Messiah.  Just as a side note, Jesus says that God loves us because we have loved him. And when we make the effort to pour out our whole being in praise and worship to show our love to the Father and to His Son then God honors our love for His Son by allowing us to feel His PRESENCE. I have FELT the loving arms of God's presence giving me a big hug many times. And each time His loving presence overwhelms me so much that I begin to cry out loud trembling with even more joy, praise, and love for God. One time, during a church service, I was interceding for others to join in with me as I was worshiping God with my whole being. I did not want the worship service to stop. My heart was longing for all my brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, to TRULY enter into praise and worship with their whole being to feel the presence of God like I was feeling. And when the singing and praise stopped we all sat down. But WITHIN myself I kept on worshiping God enjoying His presence and that is when his presence INCREASED BEYOND what I had ever felt before. I could literally feel His arms around me squeezing me giving me a HUG showing HIS excitement of my worship to him. And more so, I believe that it was because I prayed so fervently for my brothers and sisters in the Lord to truly KNOW the LOVE that God has for them.  Please read the study ALMIGHTY GOD LOVES YOU SO MUCH! But for now, let us continue looking at the deeper meaning of Proverbs 8:30,31.

Then we see Jesus GAMBOLING which means dancing around skipping and playing in the EARTH that God has NOT YET prepared FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet future Son, Jesus. So to me, Proverbs 31 clearly and plainly teaches us that Jesus did NOT LITERALLY PRE-EXIST by his God and Father’s SIDE as a separate divine eternal Spirit being called God the SON in eternity past. Again, both Trinitarian Christians and Oneness Christians CLAIM that Jesus created ALL things. Even the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus is the creator, as in, God created Jesus first, and then Jesus created everything else. But yet the Jehovah’s Witnesses do NOT believe that Jesus is God. They believe that Jesus is [A] God the same as all Unitarian Christians including myself. But to me, how can a created CREATURE be the creator of the universe. That is when I took a CLOSER look at all the verses in the New Testament that SEEM to be saying that Jesus is the creator of everything that exists. 

All Christians agree that the Bible ITSELF does NOT contradict itself. But in TRUTH, the INTERPRETATION of Jesus PRE-EXISTING in eternity past and also as being the CREATOR of all things clearly CONTRADICTS what we read in Proverbs chapter 8, IF SO BE, that Jesus LITERALLY pre-existed in eternity past as the creator. For you see, we clearly see right here in this passage of Scripture that the DESIGNER, Architect, builder and CREATOR of all things is Almighty God Himself having His yet future SON in His MIND while He Himself is doing all of this FOR or For the SAKE OF his SON Jesus. And if one INTERPRETS Proverbs 8:22-31 as Jesus LITERALLY pre-existing then one MUST also interpret all the verses in the New Testament that SEEM to be saying that Jesus is the creator of all THINGS to mean that “BECAUSE OF” Jesus, God’s NEW CREATION of righteous humans created IN Jesus will be given the right to become partakers of the divine nature of immortality along with the now glorified Son of MAN, Jesus. 

Please read the study “WHAT DOES FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE TRULY MEAN?”

Thanks for reading and may God bless you richly as you CONTINUE to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Below is a complete list of all the studies that I have which show WHY I no longer believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and why I can NEVER believe in the doctrine of Oneness. I assure you that every verse that SEEMS to be saying that Jesus pre-existed in eternity past has another meaning that does NOT contradict any other verses of Scripture in the entire Bible.

 

Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Brother Mark.


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VERSES USED TO TEACH THAT JESUS PREEXISTED!

JOHN 1:1-3

 

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2. The same was in the beginning with God.

3. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” 

 

JOHN 3:13

 

“And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

JOHN 3:17

“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” 

 

JOHN 3:31

 

“He that comes from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he that comes from heaven is above all.”

 

JOHN 6:32 

         

“Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven”

 

JOHN 6:33 

 

For the bread of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world.”

 

JOHN 6:38

 

“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

 

JOHN 6:42 

“And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”

 

JOHN 6:50 

“ This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.”

 

JOHN 6:51

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eats of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

 

JOHN 6:58

“This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live forever.”

 

JOHN 6:62 

 

“What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”

 

JOHN 8:14

 

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”

 

JOHN 8:23 

 

“And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.”

 

JOHN 8:24

 

“I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.”

 

JOHN 8:42,43

        

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 

43. Why do you not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.”

 

JOHN 8:58

 

“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

 

JOHN 16:28 

 

“I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”

 

JOHN 17:5

 

“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”

 

JOHN 17:8 

 

“For I have given unto them the words which you gave me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.”

 

 

JOHN 17:24 (scroll down to the second verse in question in this study)

 

“Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.”

 

ROMANS 8:3 (scroll down to the eleventh verse in question in this study)

 

“For what the law could not do, in that, it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”

 

1 CORINTHIANS 10:4 (scroll down to the first verse in question in this study)

 

“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

 

1 CORINTHIANS 15:47 (scroll down to VERSE #6.)

 

“The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”

 

2 CORINTHIANS 8:9  (scroll down to VERSE #2.)

 

“For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.”

 

GALATIANS 4:4

 

“But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”

 

EPHESIANS 3:9-11

 

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hidden in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11. According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:”

 

EPHESIANS 4:8-10 (scroll down to the fifth verse in question in this study)

 

“Wherefore he said, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)”

 

COLOSSIANS 1:15-17 (scroll down to the third verse in question in this study)

 

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17. And he is before all things, and by him, all things consist.”

 

HEBREWS 1:2

 

“Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”

 

Hebrews 2:16,17

 

“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17. Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

 

Hebrews 5:8

 

“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;”

 

HEBREWS 10:5 (scroll down to VERSE #1.)

 

“Wherefore when he comes into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:”

Psalm 40:6,7

 

PHILIPPIANS 2:6-8

 

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

 

1 John 1:1,2

 

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.

2.  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested unto us;)”

 

REVELATION 3:14 

 

“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”

 

MICAH 5:2

 

“But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

 

GENESIS 1:26

 

 

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

 

PROVERBS 8:22  (scroll down to the second verse in question in this study)

 

“The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.”

 

Thanks for reading. May God bless you richly as you continue seeking the truth of the whole word of God. Also, please read the studies listed below related to Jesus being God, the doctrine of the Trinity, and the Deity of Jesus.

Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Mark.

 

 

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             Verses used to try and support the doctrine of the trinity, and that Jesus is Yahweh himself, as in one and the self-same being.

Genesis 1:26---Let US make man in OUR image!

Genesis 18:1-3 Was Jesus ONE of the THREE MEN or angels who APPEARED to Abraham?

Genesis 19:24--- YAHWEH rained down fire... from YAHWEH.

Isaiah 6:3---HOLY HOLY HOLY means TRINITY!

Isaiah 7:14---Immanuel God with us!

Isaiah 9:6---MIGHTY GOD and EVERLASTING FATHER!

Isaiah 48:16---The LORD AND HIS SPIRIT SENT ME!

Micah 5:2--- From everlasting.

Zechariah 12:10--- Look upon me whom they have pierced.

Matthew 1:23---Emmanuel God with us!

Matthew 28:19---In the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

JOHN 1:1---AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

JOHN 2:19-22---Jesus raised HIMSELF from the dead?

JOHN 5:18 JESUS IS EQUAL WITH GOD!

JOHN 8:24 PROVES JESUS IS YAHWEH!

JOHN 8:58---BEFORE ABRAHA I AM!

JOHN 10:30---I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!

JOHN 14:19---JESUS IS THE FATHER?

JOHN 20:28---MY LORD AND MY GOD!

Acts 20:28--- He has purchased with His own blood.

Romans 9:5--- Christ came...God blessed forever.

 2 CORINTHIANS 13:14 TEACHES TRINITY?

EPHESIANS 3:9 DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?

COLOSSIANS 2:9 IS JESUS THE GODHEAD?

PHILIPPIANS 2:6-11 PROVES PREEXISTENCE

1 TIMOTHY 3:16---God was manifest in the flesh

TITUS 2:13---Our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ

TITUS 3:2 God our Savior toward man APPEARED

Hebrews 1:8--- Your throne O' God.

Hebrews 7:1-3 ---Is Melchizedek a theophany of Jesus?

1 John 5:7--- And these three are one.

1 John 5:20--- Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God...

2 Peter 2:1---God AND our Savior Jesus Christ 

2 Peter 3:18---Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ 

Revelation 1:8--- JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY?

Revelation 1:17--- First and the Last (Isaiah 44:6

Revelation 17:14--- WHO IS THE KING OF KINGS.

       

Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Brother Mark.

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Now, I, myself, do not find one verse in the entire Bible that prophesies of God the Son being sent down from heaven to incarnate himself as the Son of God having TWO natures, one divine, and one human.

More Scriptures that show the TRUE Jesus to be the fulfillment of the Scriptures of PROPHECY that you can look up on your own: Luk_24:6-7, Luk_9:22, Luk_18:31-33; Mat_16:21, Mat_17:22-23, Mat_20:18-19; Mar_8:31-32, Mar_9:31; Mar_10:33-34; 1Pe_1:10-11; Rev_19:10+++ Joh_16:4-5, Joh_16:16-17, Joh_17:11-13+++Luk_24:26-27, Luk_24:46, Luk_21:22; Mat_26:54, Mat_26:56; Joh_19:24-37; Act_3:18, Act_13:29-31, Act_13:33; 1Co_15:3-4

In the law: Gen_3:15, Gen_14:18, Gen_22:18, Gen_49:10; Lev_16:2-19; Num_21:8, Num_35:25; Deu_18:15-19; Joh_3:14, Joh_5:46; Act_3:22-24, Act_7:37; Heb_3:5, Heb_7:1, Heb_9:8, Heb_10:1

In the prophets: Luk_24:27; Act_10:43; Isa_7:14, Isa_9:6, Isa_11:1-10, Isa_28:16, Isa_40:1-11, Isa_42:1-4, Isa_49:1-8, Isa_50:2-6; Isa_52:13-15, Isa_53:1-12, Isa_61:1-3; Jer_23:5, Jer_33:14; Eze_17:22, Eze_34:23; Dan_2:44, Dan_7:13, Dan_9:24-27; Hos_1:7-11, Hos_3:5; Joe_2:28-32; Amo_9:11; Mic_5:1-4; Hag_2:7-9; Zec_6:12, Zec_9:9, Zec_11:8-13, Zec_12:10, Zec_13:7, Zec_14:4; Mal_3:1-3, Mal_4:2-6

In the psalms: Psa_2:1-12, Psa_16:9-11, Psa_22:1-31, Psa_40:6-8, Psa_69:1-36, Psa_72:1-20, Psa_88:1-18; Psa_109:4-20, Psa_110:1-7, Psa_118:22; Joh_5:39; Act_17:2-3; 1Pe_1:11; Rev_19:10.

 

And as I promised here is the list of the six main headings that list all the studies I have on this subject as to who Jesus is according to what the Bible ITSELF teaches us in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.

I will also give this list of the six following headings again at the end of this study so you can stay focused on one study at a time.

 

>>>A LIST OF STUDIES ON THE TRINITY!<<<

 

>>>IS THE DOCTRINE OF ONENESS BIBLICAL?<<<

 

>>>WHO OR WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?<<<

 

>>>IS JESUS THE CREATOR?<<<

 

>>>WAS JESUS CREATED?<<<

 

>>>WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG?<<<

 

And for further studies on false teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ please read the studies listed throughout all the studies here at AMatterOfTruth.com and view the videos under the tab at the top called >>>FALSE TEACHINGS!<<< Under that heading, you will find the facts of what religious groups like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Islam teach about Jesus as compared to the word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible, as in, the WHOLE word of Almighty God. And by the phrase “the WHOLE word of Almighty God”, I mean that all verses of Scripture must be correctly interpreted in the LIGHT of the whole word of God and compared with all other correctly interpreted verses of Scripture, as opposed to, interpreting a few verses that are taken OUT of context to teach what is not the truth of the WHOLE word of God. For you see, whenever any INTERPRETATION of a verse of Scripture CONTRADICTS any other verses of Scripture that are correctly interpreted in the light of the whole word of Almighty God then that INTERPRETATION is NOT the correct interpretation. So always interpret the hard “controversial” verses in the light of the SIMPLE CLEAR verses that do not need any interpretation to understand what they mean.

Plain and simple, if the gospel you have been taught does NOT follow the teachings of the WHOLE word of Almighty God under the NEW COVENANT written in the New Testament, then you have NOT been taught the TRUE BIBLICAL Jesus. Again, this does NOT necessarily mean that you are not saved, but rather, that you may not be walking with God in the FULL potential that our heavenly Father desires for you to walk. If you do not understand what I mean by this please be patient, this will all become clear as you read all the studies I give links to within this study. But you must have a sincere desire to know the truth and nothing but the truth.

So let us begin this study in God's word by me giving you a list of titles of Jesus during the days of his FLESH. Again, I will give this same list at the end of this study as well but for now, I would like you to simply read the list of titles of who Jesus was CALLED before Jesus ascended into heaven. There are actually FIVE AGES of Jesus and Jesus is something different in each of those five ages. I will also give the link to the study on the five ages of Jesus at the end of this study as well. But for now, please stay focused on reading THIS entire study first. Here are twelve titles of Jesus as to who Jesus is according to what the Bible ITSELF teaches us in SIMPLICITY.

 

Remember that Jesus is something DIFFERENT is each of the FIVE AGES of Jesus. So please read the study “THE FIVE AGES OF JESUS!”

 

#1. Jesus is the “I AM HE”!

 

Jesus said and if you do not believe I am he you will die in your sins. In other words, Jesus is the fulfillment of PROPHECY! What I mean by this is that Jesus is the one who was prophesied to come. Please read the following studies “PROPHECIES OF JESUS BEING THE MESSIAH!”, 365 PROPHECIES OF JESUS!”, “HISTORICAL EVIDENCE OF JESUS!”, “WHO IS THE TRUE MESSIAH?”, and “JOHN 8:24 IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE I AM HE!”

 

#2. Jesus is the Son of MAN!

 

Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament Scriptures in the ORDER that the events of prophecy were prophesied. So this list of who Jesus is, according to the Bible itself is listed in the order that they were prophesied. In other words, Jesus did not come as the King of kings FIRST. But rather, Jesus was born of a VIRGIN first to suffer for the sins of the people. And then, Jesus will come again as the King of Israel. Please read the study “JESUS THE SON OF MAN!”

 

#3. Jesus is the CHRIST!

 

The word “Christ” does indeed mean the Messiah but before the Son of MAN, Jesus, actually became the Messiah by his death on the cross, God ANOINTED the Son of MAN. Many times in the Bible the word translated as “SENT” means COMMISSIONED and sending, as opposed to Orthodox Christianity meaning of being sent down from heaven. In other words, God ANOINTED the Son of MAN at his baptism by John the Baptist with His Holy Spirit and power to be able to accomplish the task that his God and Father commissioned or sent him out into the world to do. Please read the studies “JESUS THE CHRIST!” and “JESUS SAID WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM?”

 

#4. Jesus is the SON OF God!

 

Jesus was prophesied to be called the Son of God but the Son of MAN was not called the Son of God until his baptism by John the Baptist. This was when Yahweh the Father announced the Son of MAN as being His Son in whom he is well pleased. Please read the study “JESUS THE SON OF GOD!”

 

#5. Jesus is our FELLOW SERVANT!

 

Jesus is our BROTHER. We will be JOINT-HEIRS with Jesus. Jesus is the FIRSTFRUITS unto God. Jesus is the CAPTAIN of our Salvation gone before us. Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of every creature in the image of God. And we are being conformed into the image of God’s dear Son. Jesus is the firstborn among MANY BRETHREN. Please read the study “JESUS OUR FELLOW SERVANT!”

 

#6. Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God!

 

To learn the TRUE meaning of “ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God” please read the study “JESUS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD!”

 

#7. Jesus is the FULNESS of the Godhead BODILY!

 

For the true SOUND Biblical meaning of Jesus being the fulness of the Godhead please read the study “JESUS THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD!”

 

#8. Jesus is GOD!

 

And according to the Bible ITSELF, Jesus is “A” God under and subject TO HIS God and Father who ALONE is the ONLY TRUE God. Please BEGIN with the study “37 FACTS TO PONDER ABOUT JESUS BEING GOD!” And under four numbers I will list four things that Jesus is NOT.

 

#9. Jesus is NOT the FATHER!

 

Please read ALL the studies under the heading >>>IS THE ONENESS DOCTRINE BIBLICAL?<<<

 

#10. Jesus is NOT Almighty God Himself!

 

But rather Jesus is the IMAGE OF the invisible God. Please read the study “IS JESUS ALMIGHTY GOD?”

 

#11. Jesus is NOT Yahweh Himself!

 

Jesus came out from God but that does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh Himself. Please read the study “IS JESUS YAHWEH?”

 

#12. Jesus is NOT God the Son, the second person of the Godhead Trinity God who always existed without beginning in eternity past!

 

Please read ALL the studies listed under the heading >>>A LIST OF STUDIES ON THE TRINITY!<<<


 

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