DOES PROVERB 8:22-11
PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?
When this verse and other verses as well are interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God, then it becomes clear that Jesus UNDERSTOOD that the SCRIPTURES spoke OF HIM as being the one prophesied to come. In other words, Jesus understood of the glory that the SON OF God would be glorified with by the Father that was prophesied from the BEGINNING. Jesus understood that the scriptures spoke of HIM. So when he read Proverbs 8 Jesus saw the THOUGHTS and PLANS of Almighty God and how his SON REJOICED before him in the inhabitable part of the earth BEFORE the earth was ever created for mankind.
Let us take a close look at Proverbs 8:22-31. And as you read this passage of scripture I want you to pay close attention as to WHO is the creator, designer, planner, architect, and the one actually doing the creating. The Hebrew word of tetragrammaton "YHWH" translated as LORD in all capital letters always refers to Yahweh, the ALMIGHTY God, who we, as Christians, know as the FATHER in the New Testament. I will emphasis all the pronouns that refer to Yahweh is orange and all the pronouns referring to Jesus in green. Other highligted words are to draw your attention to them.
“The LORD (referring to YAHWEH the Lord God Almighty, who we know is the FATHER alone) possessed ME (Speaking of Jesus. The word POSSESSED means acquired, bought, purchased redeemed, brought forth into existence, and formed his SON) in the beginning of HIS way, (all these meanings of God ACQUIRING his SON teach us that Jesus not only had a BEGINNING, but also that this passage of scripture is PROPHECY of yet a future fulfillment concerning Jesus and NOT teaching us of a literal PREEXISTING Jesus. In other words. God acquired the THOUGHT of one day having a Son and God FORMED that thought within himself as an IMAGE) before HIS WORKS of old. (The meaning of the word “WORKS” here LITERALLY means PRECEDING his CONTRIVANCES of old. And this word contrivance means that God had his Son in MIND preceding his CLEVERLY DEVISED ingenious PLAN, (And God PLAN of SALVATION was to have an INNOCENT MAN be SLAIN without cause so he could redeem or buy back his creation called the HUMANS that he has not yet created PRECEDING the foundation of the world. You see dear child of God creating a NEW species of being called the humans a little lower or inferior to his previous creation the ANGELS, where 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God under the leadership of Lucifer, now known as Satan or the Devil, is PART of God's ingenious plan to prove that he created Lucifer perfect in all his ways and thus God will clear his own name for his own sake that was being defamed by the false accusation from Lucifer BLAMING God for his own prideful sin saying God created him evil and it was not his fault therefore God has no right to judge him. Please read the study “UNDERSTANDING WHY?” for the BIG picture and all the verses that answer many, many questions Christian have such as WHY doe God allow evil in the world? Please understand that this verse like all verses must be interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God and AGREE with the rest of God's word. If one interprets this verse alone and apart from the rest of God's word it may SEEM that Jesus was brought forth BEFORE the foundation of the world and was LITERALLY by the side of God as a SECOND person or being as God's Son. However in the light of the WHOLE word of God which you will see that the correct meaning of this verse is that Jesus is God FIRST DESIRE WITHIN himself to have a SON BEFORE God begins creating or preparing a PLACE FOR his Son, which is the restored world. You see dear child of God, it is like proud EXPECTING parents awaiting their unborn child who are PREPARING a room for their YET COMING child.)
23. I was set up (this word has several meanings, which are #1 God INAUGURATE his Son or APPOINTED his Son to be a King of kings) from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. (Also this word translated as set up in the King James version also carries the meaning of being POURED OUT as a drink offering is poured out. So when we take this meaning and compare it to the scripture that teaches us that Jesus is the LAMB that was SLAIN from BEFORE the foundation of the world we can see that Proverbs 8:22-31 is a PROPHECY about a YET FUTURE fulfillment from the time it was SPOKEN by God and then written down by men of old. We all KNOW that Jesus was NOT LITERALLY SLAIN BEFORE the foundation of the world. And in the same way Jesus did NOT LITERALLY PREEXIST by the side of God BEFORE the foundation of the world. But rather the SON OF God dwelt in God's MIND as as IMAGE WITHIN God before the foundation of the world. So then, it was AS IF his Son was BY his side where God had WITHIN him an IMAGE of his yet FUTURE Son before the foundation of the world. You may not agree as yet, so I ask that you please humor me and read these verses seeing God as a proud parent EXPECTING his yet UNBORN child. At least try and see these verse as God preparing a place, the world, FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet future unborn SON, who is yet to be brought into existence)
24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; (The LITERAL meaning of this word “brought forth” means TRAVAILED as a women in labor pains about to BIRTH a yet unborn child. This word also means to WAIT PATIENTLY or to look for. Again teaching us that Jesus, the SON OF God, was still yet WITHIN the God, who was anxiously AWAITING his Son to be brought forth or born of the Virgin Mary. And then the FIRST BORN from the dead would forever be God's ETERNAL Son by his right hand side LITERALLY. So all these words teach us that Jesus was BEING brought forth in the MIND of God as part of God's CONTRIVANCE to prove to Lucifer, the fallen angels and to the good angels that ALL that God creates is PERFECT and he has every right to judge Lucifer and the fallen angels. And all this is taking place in God's MIND BEFORE the recreation of the earth that was destroyed or made waste in the WAR between God and the fallen angels who were trying to take over God's throne. Again please read the study “UNDERSTANDING WHY?” for all the verses that show what I am saying about this war or rebellion of Lucifer and the fallen angels. But for now please understand that God was TRAVAILING or if you will PREGNANT with his yet unborn SON) when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: (same as above, which means that Jesus was yet in the womb of God's MIND and deep DESIRE WITHIN himself BEING brought forth into existence. Remember Exodus 3:14 where God says “I AM THAT I AM”, which LITERALLY means “I SHALL BECOME WHO I AM BECOMING”)
26. While as yet HE (Almighty God) had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. (Now those who teach the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus also teach that Jesus HIMSELF created ALL things, but ALL the verses in the OLD Testament CLEARLY and PLAINLY in SIMPLICITY teach us that Almighty God himself ALONE and by HIMSELF created ALL things. Please read the study “EPHESIANS 3:9 DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?” for a sound Biblical teaching letting the Bible speak for ITSELF clearly showing that Almighty God HIMSELF created ALL things FOR or FOR the SAKE of his SON Jesus, just like Proverbs 8:22-31 is teaching us.)
27. When HE (Almighty God himself) prepared the heavens, I was there (Meaning the Jesus was there in his THOUGHTS and DESIRES WITHIN Yahweh himself as if his yet unborn Son was literally by his side while HE was PREPARING a place for ME. Remember that God is prophesying these words TO his yet future Son, so that when the Son of MAN reads these words, he will know how much his God and Father LOVES him. That is will this passage of scripture is written in the first person as if Jesus was actually there speaking these words. But as you will see in a moment by the CONTEXT, Jesus was NOT actually brought into existence yet): when HE set a compass upon the face of the depth: (the LITERAL meaning of God setting a COMPASS upon the face of the deep is INTO DELINEATE OF HIM, which means that God is drawing out, sketching out, making a blueprint, designing WITHIN himself in his THOUGHTS and IMAGINING how he will prepare this place for his yet unborn SON. This word DELINEATE also means to PICTURE as WORDS or to PORTRAY in WORDS. To say this another way, God was PICTURING in his MIND within himself FORMING words WITHIN himself to portray the IMAGE that was WITHIN himself to bring it forth into existence, WHILE Jesus, his yet unborn Son, was the CENTER of this IMAGE that God had within himself. God was designing a PORTRAIT of the IMAGE within himself to CREATE.)
28: When HE established the clouds above: when HE strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29. When HE gave to the sea HIS decree, that the waters should not pass HIS commandment: when HE appointed (DESIGNED or delineated in himself ) the foundations of the earth:
30. Then I was by him, AS ONE brought up WITH him (Now these last two verse clearly teach us that this passage of scripture is a PROPHECY of the future fulfillment of God's SON being brought forth into existence and that it was AS IF Jesus was by his side WHILE God was PREPARING the world FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet unborn Son. Please notice in the next verse that Jesus was REJOICING IN the habitable part of the EARTH that had NOT YET been created as yet, but was still yet in the MIND and PLAN of God WITHIN himself yet to be brought forth into existence): and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31. Rejoicing IN the HABITABLE part of his EARTH; and my delights were with the sons of men.”
Again these last two verses, verse 30 and 31, clearly teach us that Proverb 8:22-31 is a PROPHECY of God yet coming Son, because we see Jesus rejoicing in the EARTH that has NOT YET been CREATED.
Let us take an even CLOSER look at the LITERAL meanings of some of these words in these last two verses. The LITERAL translation of Proverbs 8:30, 31 says:
“And I was beside him FOSTER CHILD and I was delectation day day one GAMBOLING to faces of him all of time.
31. One GAMBOLING inhabiting of earth of him and delectation of me the sons of humans.”
So then, ALL OF THE TIME WHILE God was PREPARING the world for his yet unborn SON Jesus, God was PORTRAYING or painting a portrait in his MIND PICTURING his yet future unborn SON GAMBOLING in the EARTH that God is yet PREPARING FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet unborn FOSTER child DELIGHTING over his yet coming into being unborn SON.
Let us consider the meanings of these words so we can see that PICTURE or portrait that God was painting in is MIND forming the IMAGE of what he DESIRED to BE brought into existence.
First of all, the word "beside" has another meaning other than being BY the side of God. When we consider the abundant GREAT JOY and delight that was WITHIN God picturing his Son yet to BE, then the word "beside" can take on the meaning of being beside oneself, which means out of one's MIND with EXCITEMENT or anticipation having extreme agitation. Now this meaning agrees with verse 24 of Jesus being brought forth as in God was TRAVAILING or birthing his Son WITHIN himself. This word "travailing" also has the meaning of being extremely agitated with excitement, shaking or vibrating with excitement.
Next when see Jesus being a FOSTER child. The word "FOSTER" means to raise up a child that is NOT OF your own blood and in this case a child that is NOT own God's OWN DIVINE NATURE as yet still being the Son of MAN. You see dear child of God, when Almighty God himself brought his Son into existence God stripped himself of ALL his DIVINE nature to take on HUMAN NATURE. Please read the study “WHAT DOES GOD INCARNATE TRULY MEAN?” and "PHILIPPIANS 2:6-11 PROVES PREEXISTENCE!" for what the BIBLE ITSELF teaches and NOT what the main stream churches teach.
For now please know that Jesus did not take on the divine nature of Almighty God Father by becoming IMMORTAL, until AFTER his death and resurrection, when his God and Father GAVE his SON Jesus immortality or eternal life, the same LIFE that the Father has always possessed in himself. Please read the study "WHEN DID JESUS BECOME GOD'S ETERNAL SON?", but again for now please read John 5:26,27 so we can stay focused on this study at hand.
"For AS the Father HAS life IN himself; SO HAS he GIVEN TO the Son TO HAVE life in himself;
27. AND has GIVEN him authority to execute judgment ALSO, BECAUSE he is the Son of MAN."
NOT because Jesus IS Almighty God HIMSELF. And NOT because Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God. But rather BECAUSE Jesus was the Son of MAN.
Let us get back on topic of closely examining Proverbs 8:22-31, where we see God delighting over his Son. The root word from where this Hebrew word translated as "DELIGHTING" in the original text means to DANDLE, which means to bounce up and down on ones knee, or to bounce in one's cradled arms that brought so much JOY and LOVE to God picturing his yet coming Son WITHIN himself. God truly LOVED his yet unborn Son BEFORE the foundation of the world just as we read in John 17:24.
“Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you LOVED me before the foundation of the world.”
This excitement within God I can envision that he had for his yet unborn FOSTER son. Now it was only during the days of his FLESH being the Son of MAN that Jesus was God's FOSTER child. God's ways are NOT our ways. To us a foster or and adopted child can never be a biological child. But with God NOTHING is impossible. Jesus is not actually become God ETERNAL DIVINE Son until AFTER the cross when Jesus ascended into heaven and God gave to his Son the divine NATURE of IMMORTALITY.
The only verse in the entire Bible take speaks of DIVINE NATURE is 1 Peter 2:14 where WE are given the promise to PARTAKE of the DIVINE NATURE, which is ETERNAL LIFE of IMMORTALITY.
2 Peter 1:4.
“Whereby are given unto US exceeding great and precious promises: that by these YOU (or WE) might be partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
Jesus says that God loves us because we have loved him and I have FELT the loving arms of God's presence giving me a big hug that overwhelmed me so much that I began to cry out loud trembling with joy, praise and love for God. It was during a church service and I was worshiping God with my whole being and I did not want the worship service to stop. And when the singing and praise stopped we all sat down and WITHIN myself I kept on worshiping God enjoying his presence and that is when his presence INCREASED BEYOND what I had ever felt before and I could literally feel his arms around me squeezing me giving me a HUG showing HIS excitement of my worship to him. Please read the study “ALMIGHTY GOD LOVES YOU SO MUCH!”
Then we see Jesus GAMBOLING, which mean dancing around skipping and playing in the EARTH that God has NOT YET prepared FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his Son Jesus, which clearly and plainly teaches us that Jesus did NOT LITERALLY PREEXIST by his God and Father SIDE as a separate divine eternal Spirit being called God the SON who is CLAIMED to be the one who created ALL things by those who teach the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of oneness and by the Jehovah's Witnesses as well.
But in TRUTH we clearly see right here in this passage of scripture that the DESIGNER, Architect, builder and CREATOR of all things is Almighty God himself HAVING his SON in his MIND doing all of this FOR or For the SAKE OF his SON Jesus.
So then, one can readily see from this passage of scripture that Jesus himself is saying that Almighty God the Father was behind all that was created and that he, God's Son was there with his Father BEFORE the FOUNDATIONS of the EARTH as God's DELIGHT WITHIN God PICTURING this IMAGE of his SON rejoicing before Almighty God IN the inhabitable part of the EARTH that had NOT YET been CREATED.
So clearly to ME, Jesus as God's SON was with God at this time before the foundation of the world ONLY in God's THOUGHTS, because HOW could Jesus rejoice before his God and Father INthe inhabitable part of the EARTH when the earth had NOT yet been created as yet EXCEPT in the MIND and the PLAN of ALMIGHTY God.
So you see dear child of God, when Jesus said glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began to me Jesus was praying to his God and Father, I am getting ready to go through a time very shortly Father that when I take on the sins of the world you are going to turn your back on me, so I pray that you return me to the glorious delight that you had for me before the world began and before I was ever BORN. I myself believe that Jeremiah 1:5 is a PROPHECY of Jesus.
“Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.”
Not just to the nation of Israel but the the NATIONS. You see, Jesus knew the scriptures spoke of him. Jesus knew that he was the chosen one sent by Almighty God to become that sacrifice for mankind because the Spirit of God taught him morning by morning from the scriptures. Jesus saw the END from the Scriptures, but he still had to BELIEVE. And because of the joy that was set before Jesus he endured the cross for us knowing that his God and Father is FAITHFUL to perform his spoken word.
So then, because Jesus became obedient even unto death on the cross Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED his Son and GAVE him a name that is above every name. This brings us to the third verse in question where some INTERPRET that Jesus MUST have preexisted as a second person of the trinity.
Also John 17:5 in the LITERAL Greek can be translated in a number of ways. First let us read this verse again from the King James version.
“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I HAD with you BEFORE the world WAS.”
Please notice that I have emphasized three words. The word that is translated as "I HAD" is the Greek word "ECHO" Strong's # 2192, which means to hold, to keep, or to be as a possession or as a condition. In other words, in the light of the rest of Gods's word Jesus is asking his God and Father to glorify him with the glory which God has promised and is holding in store for him. Thayer's Greek to English Lexicon defines this word to mean to have in store. Hebrews 12:1-4 teaches us that Almighty God set something that brought JOY in view before his Son Jesus which gave his SON strength to ENDURE the suffering of the cross.
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Now we as Christians have a PRIZE that is set before us to strengthen us to ENDURE unto the end that is RESERVED in heaven for us, so why is it so hard to see that Jesus was simply praying and asking God to glorify his Son with the glory that was being RESERVED in heaven for him.
The word that is translated as "BEFORE" can also mean previous and the word that is translated as "WAS" also means "TO BE". Now some Bible scholars interpret John 17:5 to mean that Jesus was asking to be glorified with the glory which Almighty God the Father was HOLDING IN STORE for his triumphant Son to enjoy prior to the world to come. This interpretation does agree with the truth of the whole word of God which teaches us that Jesus is in heaven NOW in his glorified state sitting at the right hand of his Father on his Father's throne. Please read the study "HOW DID JESUS PREEXIST?", which covers the verses of PROPHECY showing HOW Jesus became God's ETERNAL DIVINE Son on step at a time.
Thanks for reading and may God bless you richly as you continue to seek the truth of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Below is a list of the studies I mentioned within this study along with all the other studies that I have related to this subject of HOW did Jesus PREEXIST. We all agree that Jesus preexisted is some form so the question is not IF Jesus preexisted, but rather in what form as to HOW Jesus preexisted in eternity past.
Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
RETURN TO HOMEPAGE
VERSES USED TO TEACH THAT JESUS PREEXISTED!
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
“And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
“He that comes from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he that comes from heaven is above all.”
“Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven”
“ For the bread of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world.”
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”
“And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”
“ This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.”
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
“This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.”
“What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”
“Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”
“And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.”
“I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.”
“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
“I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”
“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”
“For I have given unto them the words which you gave me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.”
JOHN 17:24 (scroll down to the second verse in question in this study)
“Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
ROMANS 8:3 (scroll down to the eleventh verse in question in this study)
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”
1 CORINTHIANS 10:4 (scroll down to the first verse in question in this study)
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:47 (scroll down to VERSE #6.)
“The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”
2 CORINTHIANS 8:9 (scroll down to VERSE #2.)
“For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.”
“But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11. According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:”
EPHESIANS 4:8-10 (scroll down to the fifth verse in question in this study)
“Wherefore he said, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)”
COLOSSIANS 1:15-17 (scroll down to the third verse in question in this study)
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
“Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”
“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;”
HEBREWS 10:5 (scroll down to VERSE #1.)
“Wherefore when he comes into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:”
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”
1 John 1:1,2
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)”
“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”
“But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
“The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.”
Thanks for reading. May God bless you richly as you continue seeking the truth of the whole word of God. Also please read the studies listed below related to Jesus being God, the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Jesus.
Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
RETURN TO HOMEPAGE
Verses used to try and support the doctrine of the trinity, and that Jesus is Yahweh himself, as in one and the self same being.