V-44. John 17:5 Proves Jesus PREEXISTED!

SPELLING EDITED

V-44. John 17:5 PROVES THAT JESUS PREEXISTED!

DOES John 17:5 TEACH us THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?

Do the words of Jesus praying to the Father in John 17:5 saying, “glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began”, dogmatically mean that Jesus preexisted as the ETERNAL SON of God in eternity past without ever having a beginning as some Christians claim by demanding that there is absolutely no other way to interpret this verse in John 17:5? Does John 17:5 prove that Jesus was begotten by God in the eternity past to BECOME the FIRSTBORN of every creature as some other Christians claim? In other words, some Christians interpret the phrase “the FIRSTBORN of EVERY creature”, found in Colossians 1:15, to mean that the Son of God was BEGOTTEN by God in the eternity past. They argue their interpretation by asking the question, “How else could Jesus become the FIRST creature to ever be BORN if he was not begotten in the eternity past?” They fail to keep verse 15 in its CONTEXT to understand that the context is talking about God's NEW creatures made in His RIGHTEOUSNESS and that Jesus is the BEGINNING of the church by being the firstborn from the DEAD. Please read the study “WHAT DOES COLOSSIANS 1:15-17 TRULY MEAN” But for now, try to lay aside any preconceived church doctrine that you have come to believe and TRULY consider that some verses of Scripture do INDEED have another meaning that AGREES with every other verse of Scripture in the Bible.

I mean THINK and truly ponder on the preexisting God the Son interpretation all the way through for yourself. In other words, IF SO BE that Jesus PREEXISTED in some literal form, then there would have been TWO divine immortal beings in the eternity past. You see, whether Jesus preexisted as the Son of Almighty God, as in, the second person of some so-called Godhead Trinity God, then that would mean that there were TWO separate persons who were always immortal. And if Jesus preexisted as an ANGEL named Michael or some immortal SPIRIT being called the Word that was WITH God at his side, then that would still make TWO separate divine immortal beings in the eternity past. But yet, 1 Timothy 6:13-16 teaches us that there was only ONE who has always been immortal. I will highlight all the words and pronouns that refer to Almighty God the Father in orange and I will highlight all the words and pronouns that refer to Jesus is yellow.

1 Timothy 6:13-16.

“I give you charge in the sight of God, who quickens ALL things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; (I emphasized the words “ALL things” to draw your attention to the fact that the Greek would “PAS” means ALL and that the English word “THINGS” was added by the translators. The context is speaking of the ALL who BELIEVE, and it is God who quickens or makes alive the ALL who believe to be created as NEW creatures IN Jesus Christ. We were DEAD in our sins and God QUICKENED us to be made ALIVE IN Jesus Christ. So again, the ADDED English word “things” distracts from the true meaning of the ALL who believe that God makes alive from being spiritually dead in their sins. Also, ask yourself the question, “WHAT good confession did Pontius Pilate witness or testify about Jesus?” In John 18:37 Pilate asked Jesus if Jesus is a King? And Jesus answered, “To this END I was BORN”. Then in John 19:15, Pilate said to the Jews that wanted Jesus crucified, “shall I crucify your King?” Then Pilate wrote a sign saying “JESUS OF NAZARETH KING OF THE JEWS”. And the Apostle Paul is saying that Jesus being clearly identified as being the King of the Jews is a GOOD witness as to WHO Jesus TRULY is, according to the Bible ITSELF)

14. That you keep THIS commandment (Or I charge you to keep THIS authoritative injunction or INSTRUCTION) without spot, not able to be rebuked, (And you keep this sound Biblical teaching) until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15. Which in his times (Speaking of both the first and the second coming of Jesus) he shall SHOW, who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (And Jesus came to show us the FATHER and not himself. The word “Potentate” means Sovereign or over ALL and the Father is the God OF Jesus. The Father is the ETERNAL King and Jesus was highly exalted after the cross to be made the King of kings and Lord of lords to rule over the earth in the world to come for 1000 years.)

16. Who ONLY has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom NO MAN has seen, NOR CAN see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.”

And all of the glory, honor, and power belong to Almighty God the Father, according to Philippians 2:8-11. For you see, Almighty God the Father highly exalted His human Son, Jesus, and gave him a NEW NAME after the cross. And God did this so that AT the NAME of Jesus. speaking of the AUTHORITY given to the Son of MAN, Jesus, every knee will bow at the NAME and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord TO the GLORY OF Almighty God the FATHER. And, according to the PROPHECY in Isaiah 9:6,7, the every knee will bow at the and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord TO the GLORY OF Almighty God the FATHER will be fulfilled WHEN the government of this present world is laid upon his shoulder in the world to come during the 1000 reign of Jesus. Plain and simple, Jesus came to show us the FATHER not to show us himself.

The Eternal King over every king in the entire universe is Almighty God the Father Himself who is INVISIBLE and no mortal man has ever seen Him nor can see the Father, but mortal men have, indeed, SEEN Jesus. Also, Jesus was MADE both Lord and Christ by His God and Father when the Father GAVE His human Son a NEW NAME that is higher than any other name. And, according to John 5:26,27, Jesus was GIVEN the divine nature of immortality AFTER the cross along with ALL of the power and authority IN the NAME OF Yahweh the Father Himself. God SET His human Son Jesus to become His King of kings and Lord of lords to rule only over the earth for Yahweh in the NAME OF Yahweh in the world to come for 1000 years, according to Psalm 2, Psalm 89:27, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

Simply ask yourself the question, WHY does the word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible, teach us in Luke 2:52 that Jesus INCREASED in FAVOR with BOTH Almighty God the Father and man if so be that Jesus is Almighty God Himself in the flesh as some Christians claim?

Luke 2:52.

“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.”

Now IF SO BE that Jesus himself had always PREEXISTED with Almighty God as God the Son as Trinitarian Christians argue, then Jesus would have already had all favor. And if so be that Jesus preexisted as Almighty God, the FATHER Himself, then this still would mean that Jesus would have ALREADY had or possessed ALL the favor IF he had always preexisted with God or was God Himself from all eternity past. But yet the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and favor WITH GOD.

The Greek word “PARA” that is translated as “WITH” here in Luke 2:52 is the same Greek word used three times in John 17:5. Let us go ahead and read John 17:5 so that you can see that it can be “INTERPRETED” in other ways and that it does not dogmatically mean that Jesus was literally with the Father at His side in the eternity past. For you see, other verses of Scripture, including John 17:5, that are “INTERPRETED” to dogmatically demand that they mean, without fail, that Jesus preexisted from all eternity past can be interpreted in other ways. So, therefore, to conclude from just the INTERPRETATIONS of those verses that Jesus had NO BEGINNING ever or that the Son of God was begotten and had his beginning in the eternity past is not correctly interpreting the Scriptures in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. In other words, to conclude that Jesus is CO-ETERNAL with Almighty God the Father in every way is an error in INTERPRETATION. For you see, those verses can be interpreted in other ways that do NOT contradict any other part of God's word. But yet, the INTERPRETATION that Jesus preexisted as another divine immortal PERSON who was with God at His side in eternity past CONTRADICTS 1 Timothy 6:13-16. Now, I cover many if not all of those other Trinitarian verses of Scripture that are INTERPRETED with the doctrine of the Trinity in their mind. So I encourage you to read all of those in-depth studies under the heading >>>A LIST OF VERSES ON THE TRINITY!<<< But in this study, I will focus on John 17:5 where Jesus is praying to his God and Father asking Yahweh to glorify him with the glory he had BEFORE the world WAS.

Please read John 17:5.

“And now, O Father, glorify you me WITH (Para) your own self WITH (Para) the glory which I had WITH (Para) you before the world was.”

As you can see, the word “WITH” means something different. In other words, the first use of the word “WITH” does NOT mean being at the side of Almighty God. And therefore, one can not dogmatically demand that the third use of the word “WITH” in this verse must, without fail, mean that Jesus was literally with God at his side in the eternity past. In other words, the glory ITSELF was WITH Almighty God the Father being reserved as a PROMISE to be GIVEN TO His Messiah AFTER the cross before the world yet to be.

Now again, as I have said many times in many of my studies, when one views this or any one verse ALONE and APART from the REST of God's word then it may SEEM to be saying something that it is not truly saying in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. You have to remember that we are reading TRANSLATIONS of the original Greek text and that the Greek words also have OTHER meanings which just as easily could have been used to correctly translate John 17:5 in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.

I do agree that the King James TRANSLATION makes it SEEM as if Jesus PREEXISTED before the world was created with Almighty God as a SEPARATE BEING from Almighty God the Father who shared the GLORY that belonged only to Almighty God Himself. But does the KJV translation of John 17:5 agree with the WHOLE word of Almighty God?

To me, it does not. For you see, the very context in John 17:1-4 clearly teaches us that Jesus himself identified the only true God as being the FATHER and that the Son of God was COMMISSIONED BY Almighty God the Father.

Please read John 17:1-4.

“These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; GLORIFY your Son, THAT your Son also may glorify you: (Jesus said that the Scriptures testify of him. So Jesus knew the PROMISES in the prophecies that referred to him receiving GLORY from his God and Father that was PROMISED by God from the foundation of the world. In other words, Jesus knew from the Scriptures that the HOUR or TIME had come that Almighty God would share His OWN GLORY with His chosen one to JOIN the Father on His throne BEFORE the world that is yet to be. Please understand that it was the RESURRECTION or BY the resurrection that Jesus was DECLARED to be the SON OF God WITH POWER, according to Romans 1:3,4. So Jesus knew by the Scriptures that God would give him all power to raise the dead in order to give those who believe in him eternal life after his God and Father raised him from the dead. So then, if there was no resurrection then Christianity would be no different from any other world religion)

2. As You have GIVEN him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as You have given him. (The Son of MAN, Jesus was GIVEN all power and authority after the cross to give eternal life to whosoever believes at his coming to rule as God over the whole earth in the world that is yet to BE. The Greek word “emei” in verse 5 that is translated as “was” also means to exist and TO BE. And thus, John 17:5 could just as easily be translated as the TIME prophesied for the Messiah to be GLORIFIED is BEFORE the world that is TO BE, speaking of the world yet to come and NOT the foundation of world that was in the past)

3. And this is life eternal, (Or THIS is how to receive eternal life in the WORLD that IS TO COME. But the Son of MAN received eternal life BEFORE the WORLD that is TO COME) THAT they might know You the only true God, AND (That they also might know) Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. (The LITERAL translation of the Greek word translated as “sent” means COMMISSIONED. And the American heritage dictionary defines the word “COMMISSIONED” as one being GIVEN power and authority to accomplish a task that he or she is given to accomplish. And the Son of man, Jesus was ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit and POWER at his baptism. It was after the baptism of Jesus that God sent His human Son INTO the world)

4. I have glorified You (Father) on the earth: I have finished the work (Or the TASK) which You gave (Or commissioned) me to do.”

In other words, I did what you asked me to do my God and my Father and now it is TIME for you to keep your promise to GLORIFY me with your OWN GLORY before the world to come. To me, this is the true sound Biblical meaning of John 17:5.

For you see, it makes NO sense for a divine being who is ONE person in ONE being to SHARE His glory with HIMSELF as the Oneness Pentecostal Christians claim by their insisting that Jesus IS the Father Himself who then manifested Himself in the flesh. And neither does it make any sense for an already God the Son to be GLORIFIED if so be that Jesus was FULLY Almighty God Himself in the flesh DURING the days of his FLESH as Trinitarian Christians claim. Please THINK about this for a moment in the LIGHT of Isaiah 42:1-9 which is also used to try and prove that Jesus is Yahweh Himself because that verse is also incorrectly interpreted as well. Please give me the courtesy of hearing the WHOLE matter before you draw your conclusion that you are right and every other Christian who believes differently than you is wrong.

Let us first read Isaiah 42:8 out of its context.

“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”

Here is the Trinitarian and the Oneness Pentecostal interpretation of this verse. Trinitarian Christians read this verse as Yahweh will not EVER share His glory with ANYONE. And therefore, to THEM, Jesus must be God the Son, the second person of a Godhead Trinity God who temporarily laid aside his glory which he once had in the eternity past before the world WAS or before God created the world.

Now to ME, their interpretation of this verse in Isaiah 42:8 CONTRADICTS their INTERPRETATION of John 17:5 where God DID INDEED share His glory WITH His human Son after God raised the Son of MAN from the dead. It was AFTER the cross and the resurrection that God GLORIFIED the Son of man and CROWNED him with glory and honor. Some Trinitarian Christians may try to ague that God restored Jesus to his former glory which he had in the eternity past, but that CONTRADICTS other parts of God's word. For you see, the Bible itself teaches us that Almighty God the Father highly exalted the Son of MAN, Jesus, and GAVE him a NEW NAME above every other name except for Almighty God, the Father, Himself. You see, Trinitarian Christians ALSO teach that Jesus is Almighty God Himself in the flesh being FULLY God and fully human at the SAME time during the days of his FLESH. In other words, while they may argue that God the Son laid aside his former glory, they turn right around and contradict their own argument by claiming that Jesus was FULLY Almighty God during the days of his FLESH.

So to ME, I see Isaiah 42:8 as being a PROPHECY that Yahweh will in the future indeed SHARE His own glory with His anointed chosen servant, His Messiah, where in the past, God NEVER shared His glory with another to be so highly exalted. Let us see if you see the same thing when you read this verse in its CONTEXT.

Here is the CONTEXT of verse 8, Isaiah 42:1-9.

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; my elect, (Or the one I, Yahweh have chosen) in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. (Or for his second coming in the world TO BE to RULE in righteousness and peace)

5. Thus says God the LORD, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; He that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6. I the LORD have CALLED YOU (Speaking of Yahweh calling the Son of MAN, Jesus to be His Christ, His ANOINTED one, His SERVANT, His Messiah to walk) in righteousness, and (I, Yahweh) will hold YOUR hand, and (I, Yahweh) will keep YOU, and (I, Yahweh) give YOU (My Messiah who I am prophesying to come into being) for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

8. I am the LORD: that is my name: and MY glory will I NOT give to ANOTHER, neither my praise to graven images. (In other words, Yahweh is PROPHESYING about His Messiah who will live RIGHTEOUS before him to do ALL His will. And God is also prophesying that with ANOTHER, Yahweh the Father will not give His own glory. And this means that with no one other than my servant whom He has CALLED and He has prophesied to ANOINT and raise up in RIGHTEOUSNESS to redeem His people from their sin will I give my glory. Jesus quoted an almost identical passage of Scripture in Isaiah 62:1-3 to the Jews at the very beginning of his ministry right after God ANOINTED him with the Holy Spirit and with power at his baptism. And then Jesus said to the Jews that the Scripture he read from the prophet Isaiah was FULFILLED in their ears meaning that Jesus was telling them “I am he”, the Messiah, the one God prophesied would come. And later in John 8:24, Jesus told the Jews who did not believe him that if they did not believe his words, saying, “I am he” then they shall die in their sins. And the Jews asked him, “he who?” Or WHO are you saying that you are? And Jesus answered their question as to WHO he IS, by saying, I am the SAME that I told you in the BEGINNING, meaning the beginning of his MINISTRY. See Luke 4:14-21 and John 8:24,25 and also read the study “JOHN 8:24-IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE I AM HE!” which teaches what John 8:24 TRULY means in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God)

9. Behold, the FORMER things are come to pass, (Or the old ways of the past are coming to an end) and NEW THINGS do I declare: BEFORE they spring forth I tell you of them.”

And one of these NEW THINGS is that God PROMISED to give or SHARE His own glory to another. and that another is the Son of man, Jesus, Yahweh's anointed servant. And it was at the TIME appointed after the cross that Yahweh SHARED His glory with ANOTHER to CROWN His human Son with GLORY and honor. So then, at that time in the future that was FULFILLED at the cross it would no longer be as it was in the former times where God never shared His glory with anyone. For you see, Yahweh prophesied that there would be NEW THINGS. The FACT is that God did indeed share His glory with another after the cross. God prophesied these NEW things to be DECLARED BEFORE they took place and will yet take place. For you see, we who believe will also be GLORIED as well at the coming of Jesus to be made LIKE Jesus, according to 1 John 3:1-3.

So to ME, Jesus never INTENDED his words, “glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was”, to mean that he was saying he preexisted with God at His side from all eternity past sharing in God's glory as God the Son, the second person of a Trinity Godhead. But rather, Jesus knew that the PROPHECIES in the Scriptures spoke of HIM as the anointed man who would BE glorified with his God and Father own glory as a joy set before him to endure the cross. Jesus also knew that the HOUR in which God would crown him with glory and honor would be BEFORE the world to COME was or is prophesied TO BE. It is much like we know the HOUR or the time that we will be glorified which is AT the COMING of Jesus. But the unsaved world itself will not actually SEE the glory that God GAVE to the Son of MAN, Jesus, UNTIL the world to COME IS. In other words, to the unsaved in the world, the coming of Jesus will look like an alien invasion destroying the world. For you see, Jesus is also coming to execute the WRATH of Almighty God as well as to rapture the church. So to us who believe in Jesus, then the coming of Jesus is a good thing. But to the world, the coming of Jesus will appear as if the world is coming to an END. And while it is true that this PRESENT world will come to an end and the kingdoms of this present world will become the kingdom of God's King of kings and Lord of lords, it does not mean the COMPLETE end of the world altogether. But rather, a new REIGN over the world is coming where Satan, the rebel god of this present world will be bound for 1000 years and replaced by Jesus who will reign in righteousness and peace having no more wars for 1000 years. To this end was Jesus BORN to be the King of Israel. Again, the Greek word that is translated as before the world WAS also means before the world TO BE. Here is how E-Sword defines the Greek word “einai” that is from the Greek word “eimi”.

G1511

εἶναι

einai

i'-nahee

Present infinitive from G1510; to exist: - am, are, come, is, X lust after, X please well, there is, to be, was.

Jesus knew that the Scriptures spoke of him and he understood that God promised or set a JOY before the Son of man, Jesus that he would receive after he endured the cross. Jesus knew about the world yet TO COME, the world TO EXIST, or the world TO BE.

Please read Hebrews 12:2.

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR the JOY that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

So then, part of that joy set before Jesus was the promise that God would SET him at the Father’s right hand to sit on His God and Father’s throne to rule FOR Yahweh in the NAME OF Yahweh in the world TO COME for 1000 years. Again, when these verses in John 17:1-5 and other verses used to try and support the doctrine of the Trinity are interpreted correctly in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God, then it becomes clear that Jesus UNDERSTOOD that the SCRIPTURES that spoke OF HIM as being the one prophesied to come. In other words, Jesus understood about the promise of the glory that the SON OF God to be crowned with glorify by the Father that was prophesied from the BEGINNING before the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9..

“Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us IN Christ Jesus before the world began,”

Now, no Christian would ever interpret this verse of Scripture to me that we were literally SAVED in the eternity past just because it was GIVEN to us BEFORE the world began. We understand that God's plan of salvation was founded in the mind of God BEFORE the world BEGAN. So then, could we not pray a similar prayer that Jesus prayed in John chapter 17 and say, “I thank you, Father, for the GLORY I had with you before the world began?” Yes we could! For you see, we all have fallen short of the GLORY that God prepared for us all. The INTENDED GLORY of man is to eat of the tree of LIFE and be made a partaker of the divine nature of IMMORTALITY. but ALL men have fallen SHORT of God's intended GLORY. So then, would this prayer asking for God's intended glory that He prophesied in His word make us preexist simply because we HAD grace in God’s eyes BEFORE the world began to be SAVED IN Jesus Christ to be GLORIFIED WITH Jesus at his second coming? NO! Absolutely NOT! And to me, there is no difference when Jesus simply asked God for the GLORY which he has IN God's eyes before the world began that was PROPHESIED to be given to him. It was the PROMISE of the glory that was with God before the world was and NOT that the Son of God was literally with God at His side in the eternity past.

Please read Luke 24:25-27.

“Then he (Jesus himself doing the speaking) said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken:

26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to ENTER into his glory?

27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.”

The GLORY that Jesus ENTERED INTO after the cross was to be made a partaker of the divine nature of IMMORTALITY. Jesus was GIVEN eternal life after the cross to be having life in himself even as the Father has life in Himself, according to John 5:26,27. The CONTEXT of John 5:26 found in the very next verse, verse 27, says BECAUSE he was the Son of MAN. So it was the Son of MAN, Jesus, who was GIVEN eternal life to BE HAVING or to ENTER INTO having in himself even as the Father has always had eternal life in Himself. It makes no sense whatsoever to argue that the Son of God was given eternal life in the eternity past just so a Christians can CLING to the false doctrine of the Trinity.

For you see, if so be that Jesus was Almighty God Himself in the flesh during the days of his ministry then how can an immortal God DIE. The TRUTH that the Bible itself teaches us is that a CHILD was prophesied on Isaiah 9:6 to be born first, and THEN when that child grew up to become a man, THEN the Son of MAN would be GIVEN and lifted up on the cross. And then, WHEN the government is laid upon his shoulders in the world TO COME, THEN his NAME shall be called the Mighty God. And it is Yahweh the Father who prophesied all these things and who also watches over His own spoken word to PERFORM His word, according to Isaiah 9:7. So then, in truth, Jesus is the WORKMANSHIP OF his God and Father and we are to HONOR Jesus even as we honor Almighty God the Father because Yahweh, the Father commands us to honor His Son, Jesus.

And by my simply teaching you the TRUTH, the TRUTH is not belittling Jesus. I have been accused of MAKING Jesus to be human. But in truth, it is the Bible ITSELF that teaches us that Jesus is a HUMAN being who had no EARTHLY father. The Bible itself teaches us that the one Godhead is ONE person who alone is the Father will judge the world BY the MAN who He ordained and raised from the dead. All of the verses with the word Godhead in them clearly identify the Godhead as being ONE being in ONE person. Please read the studies “THERE IS BUT ONE GOD”, and “WHAT DOES THE GODHEAD TRULY MEAN?” But for now, let us continue this study on John 17:5 to understand its TRUE sound Biblical meaning in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.

And what about Titus 1:2?

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, PROMISED before the world began;”

We read this as a PROMISE given to us just as this same PROMISE of JOY to receive eternal life was set before Jesus to endure the cross.

So again, could we not pray a similar prayer to Jesus found in John chapter 17 and say, “Father glorify me with eternal life that I had with you before the world began?” Would praying that kind of prayer mean that we are saying that we preexisted in eternity past? For you see, we had this GLORY to be given eternal life before the world was in the same way that Jesus had this GLORY with the Father before the world was. The glory ITSELF was reserved in heaven WITH the Father as a PROMISE to be GIVEN to His human Son AFTER the cross and BEFORE the world TO BE.

Jesus knew the Scriptures spoke of him. Jesus knew that he was God’s elect in Isaiah and that God prophesied that his elect would be glorified with Yahweh's own glory. These prophecies were in the mind and plan of God before the world began. So to me, Jesus was simply asking for the glory that was promised to him of the Father before the world began to JOIN WITH God on His throne as God's HIGHLY EXALTED Son. God PROPHSIED in Psalm 89:27 saying, “I will MAKE my FIRSTBORN higher than the kings of the earth.” In other words, God prophesied that He would EXALT His FIRSTBORN Son to be MADE higher than the kings of the earth.

And John 17:22 says Jesus has given us the SAME glory that the Father gave him after the cross.

John 17:22.

“And the glory which You gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:”

In other words, Jesus promised us who believe in him that we should be made kings and priest to be made JOINT HEIRS with Jesus. So could we not pray to the Father, glorify me heavenly Father with the glory I had with you before the world was because you prophesied to save us saved IN Jesus before the world was or before the world TO BE? Would that prayer then mean that we preexisted with God in the eternity past? No! Of course not!

So to me, Jesus is obviously speaking of the promises of God that God promised in the Scriptures as His plan of Salvation that God had in His MIND before the world began. God promised His Messiah in the Scriptures of prophecy to highly exalt the Son of MAN Jesus and glorify him with His own glory so that the Son of MAN would become God’s ETERNAL Son. Please read the three part study called “WHEN DID JESUS BECOME GOD’S ETERNAL SON? Part 1”

But for now, please know and understand that Jesus being called the firstborn of God of every creature is speaking of God’s new creation made in God’s perfect image of righteousness and immortality. Jesus was MADE perfect after the cross to BECOME the author of salvation, according to Hebrews 5:9. Jesus was MADE both Lord and Christ which also means Messiah or Savior after the cross, according to Acts 13:33,34. And Jesus became the express image of God after the cross by becoming firstborn from the DEAD in order to become the firstborn among many BRETHREN. And now, we who believe are being conformed into the IMAGE of God’s Son which will fulfill the PROPHECY in Genesis 1:26 where God prophesied to His yet future Messiah asking him to obey His word to make man in their own image. But God needed to make the Son of MAN, Jesus, in His own image first.

And that, to me, is the true sound Biblical meaning of John 17:5. Jesus was the FIRST human being to be GLORIFIED. And thus, John 17:5 does not prove that Jesus preexisted with God at his side as a separated divine person in eternity past. Jesus knew that the Scriptures spoke of him and he was simply asking God to glorify him with the glory God had promised in His word before the world began. And the HOUR or the TIME that God’s Messiah would be glorified was at the cross and resurrection of the Son of MAN, Jesus.

Now during the rest of this study on John 17:5, we will be comparing Scripture with Scripture to make absolutely sure that this Biblical Unitarian “interpretation” that you just read above in the first half of this study AGREES with the rest of God’s word.

When we read the Old Testament as being PROPHECY that is hidden in types, figures, shadows, and analogies or personifications, as in, Proverbs, chapter 8, then we can see how the Scriptures testify of a PROPHESIED yet coming Son of God.

Here is one example of how Jesus understood that the Scriptures spoke of HIM. You see, when Jesus read Proverbs 8:22-31, Jesus saw the THOUGHTS and PLANS of Almighty God and how His SON would REJOICE before him in the habitable part of the earth BEFORE the earth was ever created for mankind. I will highlight all the words and pronouns that refer to Almighty God the Father in orange and I will highlight all of the words and pronouns that refer to the yet coming Messiah Jesus in yellow.

Please take a close look at Proverbs 8:22-31.

“The Lord (YHWH Almighty God the owner and possessor of all, who we now know as the Father) possessed (Or acquired, owned, brought forth, formed, created) me (Speaking of God bringing forth Jesus into existence. Before Yahweh actually creates anything He FORMS an IMAGE within Himself of WHAT He desires to create or bring to pass by performing His word of prophecy to FULFILL it. And then Yahweh SPEAKS FORTH the spoken word of prophecy of that IMAGE that is WITHIN Himself to BECOME into existence as a manifestation of that IMAGE. So then, God formed his Messiah in His mind and plan of salvation) in the beginning of His way, before HIS works of old (Speaking of Almighty God's works. Please notice that it was as IF God’s Son was there while God alone and by himself recreated the earth to be inhabitable once again)

23. I (Speaking of Jesus, the SON of God as being in God’s THOUGHTS in the form of the IMAGE that God had in His MIND and in His THOUGHTS as for WHO Yahweh was restoring the earth to be INHERITED BY. Both Genesis chapter 1 and Proverbs chapter 8 refer to God re-creating the world after it became void during the war with Lucifer who rebelled and tried to take over God's throne. It was then that God formed His thoughts into His plan of salvation that He needed to keep SECRET from His enemy Satan. For you see, has Satan and the fallen angels known, then they would have not crucified the Lord of glory. So God is teaching us that His yet future human Son, Jesus) was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. (This means that the image within Yahweh was that He would ANOINT His yet coming Son to be His King of kings and Lord of lords to rule for Him during His day of rest in the seventh 1000 year long day of the Lord was PROPHESIED from the beginning. This verse agrees with the goings forth of God’s Messiah in Micah 5:2 being prophesied from everlasting. Jesus being SET UP or ANOINTED to be BORN to BECOME the King of Israel was prophesied from everlasting also agrees with Jesus being SLAIN from BEFORE the foundation of the world was from everlasting or ever the earth was. And we all know, understand, and agree that Jesus was NOT LITERALLY slain in eternity past before mankind was ever created to REPLENISH the earth that BECAME void and uninhabitable and needed to be restored to become habitable once again. Please read the study “MICAH 5:2 His Goings forth from EVERLASTING!” But for now, please read Proverbs 8:22-31 as being prophecy being spoken to the prophets where God’s yet future Son is in His THOUGHTS while God was restoring the earth)

24. When there were no depths, I (Jesus, the SON was there in the THOUGHTS and plans of Almighty God. When there were yet no depths I was in the form of His word of prophecy or more precisely, I was there as being the IMAGE that God had within Himself in His mind and thoughts and plans) was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. (This means that Yahweh desired to one day have a Son and before God’s human Son was LITERALLY brought forth, Jesus existed only as an IMAGE within Yahweh before Yahweh had any other images of how he would recreate the earth. And this interpretation agrees with the teaching in the New Testament that ALL God created He created FOR and FOR the SAKE of His yet coming Son. Yahweh had His yet future Son in His mind to recreate the world FOR His Son to INHERIT)

25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I (Jesus, the SON, in the form of Yahweh the Father’s SPOKEN WORD of prophecy I was) brought forth: (Or I was being shaped in the mind of Yahweh)

26. While as yet HE (Almighty God Yahweh who we now know as the Father, but was not yet actually a Father of His Son Jesus as yet, because His SON Jesus was NOT YET BORN or not yet begotten. Please read the three part study “WHEN DID JESUS BECOME GOD'S ETERNAL SON? Part 1” In other words, as yet or before God restored the earth to be habitable once again, Yahweh was prophesying in His THOUGHTS saying to Himself, “I WILL BE a Father to him and he SHALL BE a Son to me, this DAY I have BEGOTTEN you.” WHILE He) had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27. When HE (Almighty God who we now know as the Father) prepared the heavens, I (Speaking of Jesus, the yet future SON, was in the form of the word of prophecy only in the mind and thoughts of Yahweh) was there: when HE (Almighty God the Father) set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28. When HE (Almighty God the Father) established the clouds above: when HE (Almighty God the Father) strengthened the fountains of the deep.

29. When HE (Almighty God the Father) gave to the sea HIS (God the Father’s) decree, that the waters should not pass HIS (God the Father’s) commandment: when HE (God the Father) appointed the foundations of the earth:

30. Then I (Speaking of Jesus, the SON in the form of the spoken word of prophecy. Remember that the LITERAL translation of John 1:1 is as follows: “In beginning was the SAYING and the SAYING was TOWARD (Or more precisely, the SAYING was WITHIN ) the God, and God was the SAYING.”) was BY him,(Or I with Yahweh) AS one brought up with him: and I (Jesus, the SON being in the form of the WORD as the IMAGE of God's THOUGHTS within Himself) was daily HIS delight, rejoicing always before HIM;

31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of HIS earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.”

Now, one can readily see from this passage of Scripture that word of TRUTH is saying that Yahweh, Almighty God the Father HIMSELF, did all of the creating BY himself WITHOUT any help from anyone. And thus, by some Christians “INTERPRETION” of some of the verses in the New Testament like Colossians 1:16.17, John 1:3, and Ephesians 3:9 as Jesus BEING the CREATOR of all THINGS, then their interpretation of those verses of Scripture CONTRADICT what we clearly see in Proverbs 8:22-31 as the Father ALONE and by Himself as being the CREATOR.

And thus, if one “INTERPRETS” Proverbs 8:22-31 as Jesus, LITERALLY being there by God’s side in the eternity then they MUST agree that they have INCORRECTLY interpreted Colossians 1:16,17, John 1:3, and Ephesians 3:9 as Jesus being the creator of ALL THINGS. Please read all the studies under the headings >>>IS JESUS THE CREATOR?<<< and >>>WAS JESUS CREATED?<<< But for now, let us continue this study in Gods word on John 17:5.

God's word that is translated as the Word with a capital “W” in John 1:1 is in TRUTH the SAYING OF God or God's spoken word of PROPHECY that was WITHIN Almighty God as His IMAGE of His desire within Himself of one day bringing forth into being His only BEGOTTEN Son to MAKE him Lord and God over the earth after the cross. And thus, there was only the one true God in ONE person BEFORE the FOUNDATIONS of the EARTH with a PLAN of salvation in His MIND within Himself. And part of God's plan of salvation was God's delight of seeing into the future of His yet coming Son rejoicing before him IN the habitable part of the EARTH that had NOT YET been CREATED.

So to ME, it is blatantly clear that Jesus as God's SON was with God at this time before the foundation of the world ONLY in God's THOUGHTS, in God's PLAN as an IMAGE within Himself to one day bring forth His human SON into existence FIRST. And then God would CROWN His obedient human Son with GLORY and honor after the cross. Now, one of the reasons as to why I say this is because HOW could Jesus rejoice before his God and Father IN the HABITABLE part of the EARTH when the earth had NOT yet been created as yet EXCEPT in the MIND and the PLAN of ALMIGHTY God?

So you see, when Jesus said glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began, to me, I see that Jesus was praying to his God and Father saying, Heavenly Father, you know that I am getting ready to go through a time very shortly where you will lay on me the sins of the world. And I know that you must turn your back on me for a short time. And I know you have promised in your word that you will not leave my soul in hell but I still have some fear in me. So I pray that you honor your word and you glorify me with the glorious delight that you had for me in your mind before you ever began to recreate the world FOR me to inherit before I was even BORN and even before the world was.

You see, Jesus knew the Scriptures spoke of him. Jesus knew that he was the chosen one sent out into the world by Almighty God to become that once and for all time perfect sacrifice for mankind because the Spirit of God taught him morning by morning from the Scriptures. Jesus saw the END of the purpose of God to crown him King over the earth by reading the Scriptures, but Jesus still had to BELIEVE. So Jesus FEARED in the same way that we fear having HOPE that God hears our prayers. And because of the joy that was set before him, Jesus endured the cross for us knowing that his God and Father is FAITHFUL to perform His spoken word. And just as we remind God of His PROMISES in His word, Jesus was simply saying, remember Father what you spoke of in your word about promising to me your own glory.

So then, the true meaning of John 17:5 is God fulfilling His promise in prophecy to share His glory with His chosen one. And because Jesus was faithful to become obedient even unto death on the cross, Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED His human Son and GAVE him a name that is above every name and glorified the Son of MAN with His own glory of immortality.

Now let us truly CONSIDER some OTHER possible “TRANSLATIONS” of John 17:5. For you see, as I said earlier, the Greek words have OTHER meanings and they could have just as easily been translated in several other different ways.

For example, John 17:5 in the LITERAL Greek can be translated in a number of different ways. First, let us read this verse again from the King James Version.

John 17:5 from the King James Version.

“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I HAD with you BEFORE the world WAS.”

Please notice that I have emphasized three words. The word that is translated as “I HAD” is the Greek word “ECHO” Strong's # 2192, which means to hold, to keep, or to be as a possession or as a condition. In other words, in the light of the REST of God's word Jesus is HOLDING the promise of his God and Father to glorify him with the glory which God has promised and is holding in store for him. To say this another way it is just like we HOLD fast to the promise of God to GLORIFY us with His divine nature of eternal life in the world to come. For you see, we do not actually have or possess eternal life in ourselves as yet, but rather, this joy is set before us as a sure PROMISE of eternal life being reserved in heaven waiting for us.

Thayer's Greek to English Lexicon defines this word “ECHO” as meaning to have in store. So this word TRANSLATED as “I HAD” in the King James Version could just as easily been translated as “I have IN STORE or in storage being reserved” with you before the world was.

Now let us look as some of the other meanings of the Greek word translated as BEFORE the word WAS. We already covered two possible interpretations where the word WAS could have been translated as the world TO BE, as in, before the world yet to be comes into existence you promised in your word to glorify me with your own glory of immortality before the worlds or ages to come. Hebrews 12:1-4 teaches us that Almighty God set something that brought JOY in view before His human Son Jesus which gave His anointed SON the strength to ENDURE the suffering of the cross for our sins. Let us go ahead and read that passage of Scripture again.

Hebrews 12:1-4.

“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR (Or BECAUSE OF) the JOY that was SET BEFORE him ENDURED the cross, despising the shame, and IS set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (The prophecies teach us that Jesus was GRANTED to JOIN God on His Throne as opposed to some God the Son RETURNING to God’s throne. Consider what we are clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 where Jesus will rule for 1000 years and then STEP DOWN from ruling FOR Yahweh in Yahweh’s NAME and commit the ruling of the earth back into his God and Father’s hands. Now, to ME, the Scriptures sound nothing like the Trinity view of God the Son being HIGHLY EXALTED. In other words, IF a so-called God the Son laid aside his immortality so that he could die on the cross for the sins of the world, then this God the Son was demoted after the cross to be a God UNDER his God and Father. Plus, the so-called preexisting God the Son will CEASE to be God the Son after the 1000 years has ended. BUT if we see Jesus as he truly IS according to the WHOLE word of Almighty God as the very Apostles of Jesus saw Jesus, then we can see that Jesus was TRUY HIGHLY EXALTED above the angels to JOIN God on His throne)

3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest you be wearied and faint in your minds.

4. You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.”

Now, we as Christians ALSO have a PRIZE that is set before us to strengthen us to ENDURE unto the end that is RESERVED in STORE for us up in heaven. So why is it so hard for some Christians to see that Jesus was simply praying and asking God to glorify His human Son with the glory that was being RESERVED in heaven for him in the world to come.

The word that is translated as “BEFORE” can also mean previous and the word that is translated as “WAS” also means “TO BE”. And thus, some Bible scholars interpret John 17:5 to mean that Jesus was asking to be glorified with the glory which Almighty God the Father was HOLDING IN STORE for him to enjoy prior to the world yet to come. This interpretation of John 17:5 to mean Jesus is asking the Father to glorify him with his promise glory at an hour PRIOR to of before the world yet to be does agree with the truth of the whole word of God, which teaches us that Jesus is in heaven NOW in his glorified state sitting at the right hand of his God and Father on his Father's throne AWAITING the world to COME.

But even if one dogmatically demands that the writer did not mean the world to come and truly meant before the foundation of this present world, the fact that a JOY was set before Jesus still holds true. In other words, Jesus is simply asking the Father to glorify him with the JOY that was set before him still agrees with the whole word of Almighty God as we have already seen from Proverbs chapter 8 where Yahweh was viewing in his mind His Son Jesus rejoicing in the habitable place of the earth BEFORE the earth was ever created.

Now, when Jesus returns, there will be a war where men are destroying the earth. And this teaches us that some areas on the earth will not be able to be inhabited right away. In other words, there will be many RUINED places that will need to be rebuilt. So Proverbs my not be speaking of the Virgin birth but rather speaking of the restoring of the world to come at the second coming of Jesus. This is highly unlikely to ME, but I thought I would include it as a remote possibility.

Another meaning of the Greek word translated as “BEFORE” means ABOVE. So if that is the INTENDED meaning by the Holy Spirit the John 17:5 should have been translated as follows.

Another possible translation of John 17:5.

“And now, O Father, glorify You me with Your own self with the glory which I HOLD as reserved for me to JOIN with You ABOVE or OVER the world that us yet TO BE.”

And that translation or interpretation AGREES with the rest of God’s word as well.

But the Trinitarian “INTERPRETATION” of John 17:5 not only CONTRADICTS what the Bible itself teaches but it also contradicts other doctrines that Trinitarian Christians teach such as the DEITY of Jesus DURING the days of his FLESH. The Trinitarian doctrine of the Deity of Jesus teaches that Jesus was FULLY Almighty God Himself in the flesh who had TWO natures at the SAME time, one divine and one human. And Trinitarian Christians ALSO claim that John 17:5 means that a so-called God the Son preexisted WITH the glory of Yahweh the Father in the eternity past. And right before the cross, the so-called FULLY Almighty God the Son prayed to God the Father to supposedly RESTORE his former glory as God the Son to supposedly RETURN to sitting on the throne with God the Father.

Do you see the CONTRADICTION? How can a FULLY Almighty God in the FLESH truly be FULLY Almighty God Himself DURING the days of his FLESH if so be that a so-called preexisting God the Son did LAID ASIDE his immortality and POWER to incarnate himself to become flesh? If this were true, then Jesus could not have been FULLY God and fully human at the SAME time because he supposedly LAID aside SOME of his divine nature to become flesh. And that would mean that Jesus was NOT FULLY Almighty God in the flesh. And IF the two natures of Jesus at the same time is true, then that would mean that Jesus being HIGHY EXALTED is a LIE. For you see, how could and already Almighty God the Son be HIGHLY exalted IF he was TRULY Almighty God Himself in the flesh?

And IF a so-called God the Son did NOT lay aside ANY of his divine nature, then WHY would he ask God to give him the GLORY that he supposedly HAD in the eternity past? Where did the glory of the so-called preexisting God the Son go if so be that Jesus is truly saying that he literally had glory at the Father's SIDE in the eternity past as some Christians claim John 17:5 means to them.

So to ME, the reason that some Christians INTERPRET John 17:5 to dogmatically mean before this present world is to try and prove the doctrine of the Trinity which requires a preexisting God the Son without beginning nor ending. For you see dear children of God, UNTIL those who teach the doctrine of the Trinity can PROVE beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus PREEXISTED AS God's ETERNAL DIVINE SON without EVER having any kind of beginning, then they cannot prove their doctrine of the Trinity.

And Proverbs 8:22-31 proves that Jesus did indeed HAVE a BEGINNING and Proverbs 8:29-31 proves that Yahweh's Son was NOT LITERALLY THERE at his SIDE rejoicing IN the habitable part of the earth BEFORE this present world WAS. I encourage you to read this passage of Scripture again even if you already see the ERRORS of the doctrine of the Trinity. For you see, many Christians no longer believe in the doctrine of the Trinity but some Christians still believe that Jesus was begotten IN the eternity past because they have been wrongly taught that Jesus IS the CREATOR of everything that exists. So if you believe that Jesus LITERALLY preexisted in the eternity past at any time before his Virgin birth then please notice that Jesus did NOT create a single thing. It was Yahweh the Father ALONE and by Himself who created all things.

Please read Proverbs 8:29-31 again.

“The Lord (YHWH Almighty God the owner and possessor of all, who we now know as the Father) possessed (Or acquired, owned, brought forth, formed, created) me (Speaking of God bringing forth Jesus into existence. Before Yahweh actually creates anything He FORMS an IMAGE within Himself of WHAT He desires to create or bring to pass by performing His word of prophecy to FULFILL it. And then Yahweh SPEAKS FORTH the spoken word of prophecy of that IMAGE that is WITHIN Himself to BECOME into existence as a manifestation of that IMAGE. So then, God formed his Messiah in His mind and plan of salvation) in the beginning of His way, before HIS works of old (Speaking of Almighty God's works, Please notice that it was as IF God’s Son was there while God alone and by himself recreated the earth to be inhabitable once again)

23. I (Speaking of Jesus, the SON of God as being in God’s THOUGHTS in the form of the IMAGE that God had in His MIND and in His THOUGHTS as for WHO Yahweh was restoring the earth to be INHERITED BY. Both Genesis chapter 1 and Proverbs chapter 8 refer to God re-creating the world after it became void during the war with Lucifer who rebelled and tried to take over God's throne. It was then that God formed His thoughts into His plan of salvation that He needed to keep SECRET from His enemy Satan. For you see, had Satan and the fallen angels known, then they would have not crucified the Lord of glory. So God is teaching us that His yet future human Son, Jesus) was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. (This means that the image within Yahweh was that He would ANOINT His yet coming Son to be His King of kings and Lord of lords to rule for Him during His day of rest in the seventh 1000 year long day of the Lord was PROPHESIED from the beginning. This verse agrees with the goings forth of God’s Messiah in Micah 5:2 being prophesied from everlasting. Jesus being SET UP or ANOINTED to be BORN to be MADE the King of Israel was prophesied from everlasting also agrees with Jesus being SLAIN from BEFORE the foundation of the world was from everlasting or ever the earth was. And we all know, understand, and agree that Jesus was NOT LITERALLY slain in eternity past before mankind was ever created to REPLENISH the earth that BECAME void and uninhabitable and needed to be restored to become habitable once again. Please read the study “MICAH 5:2 His Goings forth from EVERLASTING!” But for now, please read Proverbs 8:22-31 as being prophecy being spoken to the prophets where God’s yet future Son is in His THOUGHTS while God was restoring the earth)

24. When there were no depths, I (Jesus, the SON was there in the THOUGHTS and plans of Almighty God. When there were yet no depths I was in the form of His word of prophecy or more precisely, I was there in the IMAGE that God had within Himself in His mind and thoughts and plans) was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. (This means that Yahweh desired to one day have a Son and before God’s human Son was LITERALLY brought forth, Jesus existed only as an IMAGE within Yahweh before Yahweh had any other images of how he would recreate the earth. And this interpretation agrees with the teaching in the New Testament that ALL God created He created FOR and FOR the SAKE of His yet coming Son. Yahweh had His yet future Son in His mind to recreate the world FOR His Son to INHERIT)

26. While as yet HE (Almighty God Yahweh who we now know as the Father, but was not yet actually a Father of His Son Jesus as yet, because His SON Jesus was NOT YET BORN or not yet begotten. Please read the three part study “WHEN DID JESUS BECOME GOD'S ETERNAL SON? Part 1” In other words, as yet or before God restored the earth to be habitable once again, Yahweh was prophesying in His THOUGHTS saying to Himself, “I WILL BE a Father to him and he SHALL BE a Son to me, this DAY I have BEGOTTEN you” WHILE He) had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

28. When HE (Almighty God the Father) established the clouds above: when HE (Almighty God the Father) strengthened the fountains of the deep.

30. Then I (Speaking of Jesus, the SON in the form of the spoken word of prophecy. Remember that the LITERAL translation of John 1:1 is as follows: “In beginning was the SAYING and the SAYING was TOWARD (Or more precisely, the SAYING was WITHIN ) the God, and God was the SAYING.”) was BY him,(Or I with Yahweh) AS one brought up with him: and I (Jesus, the SON being in the form of the WORD as the IMAGE of God's THOUGHTS within himself) was daily HIS delight, rejoicing always before HIM;

31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of HIS earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.”

Can you not see dear children of God, that it is impossible for God's Son to ALREADY BE rejoicing IN the HABITABLE part of the EARTH BEFORE the foundation of this present world that had NOT yet been created, as in restored by Yahweh to be habitable once again. So Proverbs 8:22-31 is PROPHECY of the future coming Son to come into existence by being CONCEIVED in the womb of the woman, the Virgin Mary to be BORN as the HUMAN Son of Almighty God.

The word of truth says that God's Son was brought up AS ONE that was WITH him at his side. Can you not see that this was the IMAGE of what God desired to be that was WITHIN Himself to one day be brought forth into existence. This is a PROPHECY of Yahweh's yet COMING Son into existence. Also, as I said before, some Christians dogmatically demand that Jesus created ALL THINGS but here in Proverbs chapter 8 we see Jesus WATCHING while Yahweh created all things ALONE and BY HIMSELF as his Son WATCHED his Father do the creating IF SO BE that one dogmatically demands that the Son was LITERALLY there at Yahweh's side in all the eternity past. Please read the entire study called “DID JESUS PREEXIST AS THE SON OF GOD?” But for now, let us continue this study in God's word on John 17:5.

In 1 Peter 1:3-13 we are taught that the prophets of old desired to look into this glory that was to follow in the world to come.

1 Peter 1:3-13.

“Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (Again, it is not logically to say that an Almighty God has an Almighty God OVER him. That is an impossibility. So to me, the word “God” is a TITLE and Jesus was MADE Lord and God over the earth BY his God and Father. And thus Jesus is “A” God under and subject to his God and Father and they AGREE as ONE working together in UNITY as one to make man in God express image. Let us make man in OUR image does NOT mean that a preexisting second person of a so-called Trinity Godhead created man in their image some 5000 years ago. But rather, it means that Yahweh the Father created His NEW creation of new creatures created IN Jesus Christ along WITH the help of His Messiah, Jesus who obeyed all the will of his God and Father to lay down his own life on the cross for the sins of the world)

4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, RESERVED in heaven for you,

5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6. Wherein you greatly REJOICE, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and GLORY at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8. Whom having not seen, you love; in whom, though now you see him not, (Meaning it has not yet come to pass) yet believing, you REJOICE with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9. Receiving the END of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you.

11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them (The Scriptures of prophecy) did signify, when it (The Scriptures of prophecy) testified BEFORE HAND the sufferings of Christ, (The ANOINTED servant of God) AND the GLORY that should FOLLOW. (In other words, Jesus knew that the Scriptures spoke of HIM and he was asking his God and Father in John 17:5 to be GLORIFIED with the glory that was TO BE GIVEN to His ANOINTED elect servant, who was PROPHESIED in the Scriptures. Jesus knew from the SCRIPTURES of the glory that awaited him that WAS promised to him to receive before the world yet to come actually comes)

12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13. Wherefore, gird up the loins o your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is TO BE BROUGHT unto you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ;”

So then, WE know from the Scripture of our glory that is PROMISED to us for overcoming that is YET TO BE brought unto by Jesus AT his coming. And in the same way, I also believe that Jesus UNDERSTOOD that the Scriptures spoke of HIM being given PROMISES that would FOLLOW as well. And thus, Jesus knew that this GLORY was stored up in heaven being RESERVED for him that would FOLLOW after his obeying all of his God and Father's will even to suffer and die on the cross. Jesus knew of the JOY that was set before him to ENDURE the cross. So to me, John 17:5 Jesus is simply asking his God and Father to glorify him with the ETERNAL LIFE that was reserved for him in heaven for His firstborn Son from the dead to JOIN Him on His throne to be seated by his Father's side. An all of this was planned for His yet future human SON to INHERIT BEFORE the foundation of the world and certainly given to him before the world to come.

Let us now read the entire chapter of John 17, all 26 verses, with the focus on John 17:22 where Jesus GAVE us the same GLORY that Jesus is ASKING in prayer to be GLORIFIED with the GLORY that he had BEFORE the world ever was by Almighty God the Father.

But I want you to read this chapter with the Hebrew Jewish mindset in the way that they talked and understood things. What I mean by this is that many things written in the Bible are written in the PAST tense, but yet they are speaking of a FUTURE event. In other words, the GLORY that Jesus was asking to be glorified with is the PROMISE of ETERNAL LIFE, which is the SAME glory that Jesus has ALREADY GIVEN to us as believers in the same way that we have already been given eternal life as a PROMISE reserved in heaven for us to receive in the world to come.

It is like unto some verses where we are told in Scripture that we HAVE eternal life, as in, we have already been given eternal life in the PAST tense when we first accepted Jesus as our savior. But yet, in truth, we do NOT actually possess eternal life in ourselves. It is a PROMISE given to us that we do NOT actually receive until we overcome and are given eternal life in the world yet to come. It is this mindset of Jewish thinking of past already existing, as in, God calling things as if they already are before they come into existence, that I want you to read the ENTIRE CONTEXT of John 17:5. It is like us praying to God right before we die to give us eternal life which we HAD when we first got saved.

John 17:1-26.

“These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the HOUR is come; (Or the prophesied hour of the JOY you promised me is come, so) glorify your Son, that your Son also may glorify you: (In other words, Jesus is asking the Father to NOT leave his soul in hell, but to GLORIFY him by RAISING him from the dead and GIVE him the PROMISE REWARD of IMMORTALITY that was ordained before the foundation of the world)

2. AS you have GIVEN him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him. (This is speaking of the second coming of Jesus where Jesus has already been GIVEN the authority right after his resurrection to give eternal life to all who have endured unto the end holding fast to their faith and obedience to the WORDS of Jesus. All of the teachings of Jesus were sent down from heaven and given to Jesus by the Holy Spirit DWELLING IN him so that Jesus would preach and teach God’s word to his fellow man, his human brethren. Jesus came to show us the FATHER and HIS Father’s WORDS. Jesus knew the Scriptures spoke of him and he knew that Yahweh would HIGHLY EXALT him and also GIVE him eternal life TO BE HAVING in himself. And Jesus was given all the power and authority to give eternal life to whomsoever believes in him and Jesus finds to be faithful. So Jesus is saying here, AS in, you Father have PROMISED in your word that you will give me power over all flesh and that you shall give me the fulness or your Godhead so that I can give eternal life to as many who believe in me AND believe in you who commissioned me. Now to dumb this down a bit, this is like us asking the Father in prayer on our deathbed to not forget His PROMISE to us to GLORIFY us in the world to come WITH that GLORY we HAD as soon as we believed in Jesus AS His PROMISE dwelling in us by FAITH before we actually receive this glory of eternal life in the world yet to come)

3. And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (The word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that we must have BOTH the SON and the Father in order to receive eternal life. Therefore, if we do NOT believe that Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God the Father, then we are NOT truly believing and obeying what Almighty God desires us to believe. And thus, we do NOT truly have the Father either. This is why God rejected His chosen people the Jews, who rejected that Almighty God truly BEGAT Himself a SON. The same is true of the Muslims, who do NOT believe that God has a SON. ONLY Christians believe that Almighty God has a SON. The WHOLE foundation of Christianity is that we believe that Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God the Father. We believe that the SON OF Almighty God suffered and died on the cross for our sins and God raised him from the dead and GAVE him eternal life. So why do some churches dogmatically demand that Jesus IS the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF when the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that we must believe in BOTH? Jesus is saying, and THIS is ETERNAL LIFE that mankind must believe that YOU, FATHER, are the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God who has commissioned or empowered and sent your only begotten HUMAN SON Jesus to die for their sins. And then you CROWNED me with glory and honor after the cross and granted me to sit on Your throne at Your right hand)

4. I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the WORK which you gave me to do. (In other words, Jesus is saying that he was that GOOD and FAITHFUL servant to do ALL that his God and Father led him to do so in the next verse Jesus is simply asking the Father for his reward of eternal life that was ordained from before the world was)

5. And now, O Father, glorify you me with your OWN SELF with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

6. I have manifested your name unto the men which you gave me out of the world: yours they were, and you gave them me; and they have kept your word. (Please notice that verse 5 is sandwiched between two verses where Jesus is basically saying I have done all you have led me to do so NOW do what you promised to do if I was found faithful in your eyes to obey you to do all your will. Glorify me with your OWN SELF. Glorify me with the same IMMORTAL LIFE that you yourself have always possessed. Glorify me with the JOY you set before me to ENDURE the cross that is ahead of me just hours away. As to verse 6, mankind will not be actually given TO Jesus UNTIL the SECOND COMING of Jesus. Even the wicked of mankind will be GIVEN to Jesus to break in pieces with a rod of iron, while ONLY the RIGHTEOUS who are IN Jesus Christ will be GLORIFIED with the IMMORTALITY of Almighty God the Father who ONLY has always possessed immortality. John 5:26,27 clearly teaches us that Jesus was GIVEN IMMORTALITY by his God and Father AFTER Jesus FINISHED the works that the Father led him to do. Please read the study “John 5:18-JESUS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD”)

7. Now they have KNOWN that ALL THINGS whatsoever YOU HAVE GIVEN are OF YOU.

8. For I have given unto them the WORDS which YOU GAVE ME;and they have received them, and have known SURELY that I CAME OUT FROM YOU, and they have believed that you did send me. (Please read the study “What Does JOHN 1:14 TRULY MEAN?”, and “JOHN 1:1 THE WORD WAS GOD!” But for now, please consider that the Apostles of Jesus most definitely BELIEVED that the SPOKEN word that CAME OUT FROM Almighty God did indeed BRING Jesus INTO EXISTENCE. They believed and taught that the WORD, as in, the SPOKEN WORD of prophecy was SENT from heaven down to the earth by way of the angel Gabriel. And then Gabriel SPOKE the WORD of God to the Virgin Mary and then when Mary AGREED or BELIEVED the word of prophecy saying, BE it done ACCORDING to your WORD. Then the WORD, as in, the SPOKEN WORD of prophecy was FULFILLED and was MADE or BECAME ALIVE in the womb of Mary to be BORN as the human Son of MAN who would be called the SON OF the HIGHEST. Otherwise, the disciples of Jesus would have never written and preached a single word of this MIRACULOUS BIRTH, the Virgin birth of Jesus having no earthly biological father.

Plain and simple, Jesus ONLY preexisted in the MIND and PLAN of Almighty God who ORDAINED his COMING SON to BE brought into existence in the fulness of time. Jesus CAME OUT FROM the Father and was NOT Almighty God the FATHER HIMSELF anymore that ALL of creation that CAME OUT FROM Almighty God the Father of ALL. For you see, when Yahweh speaks a tree into existence the tree does not remain fully the divine eternal Almighty God having both a tree nature and a divine nature at the same time. And there is not one single verse in the entire Bible that teaches us that Jesus had two natures at the same time. And if you do a study on church history on the creating of the doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of two natures of Jesus at the same time came later, well after the doctrine of the Trinity which took centuries to form)

9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me; for they are yours.

10. And all mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I am glorified in them. (Everything Jesus is, and everything that Jesus has was GIVEN to him BY his God and Father who alone is the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God in ONE person)

11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be ONE, AS WE ARE. (Jesus is saying that he is leaving this world to ascend up to heaven to become ONE with the Father and he is praying that all believers will be KEPT unto that great and glorious day when we too shall be made ONE with the Father. The meaning of ONE here is speaking of being GLORIFIED with IMMORTALITY the same as Almighty God. The word “ONE” does NOT mean that we actually become one and the self-same being as Almighty God the Father. And we shall be ONE even as or in the SAME WAY that Jesus and the Father are ONE. Mormonism FALSELY teaches that we all shall PROGRESS to become God or many gods on the same level as Almighty God the Father supposedly became a God. Mormonism FALSELY teaches that Almighty God the Father was once a MAN who PROGRESSED to become Almighty God the Father. Please read the study “MORMONISM VERSES BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY!” Yes, we as the born-again children of God shall be called gods by TITLE to rule and reign WITH Jesus over the earth in the world to come. But that does not mean that we will become CREATOR gods to be like Almighty God the Father)

12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in you name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (Some Christians who FALSELY teach that ALL of mankind will EVENTUALLY be SAVED argue that Judas was NOT LOST. But here in this verse, Jesus says that Judas the son of perdition was lost. This FALSE teaching is called Universalism. Please read the study “IS UNIVERSALISM A SOUND BIBLICAL TEACHING?”)

13. And now come I to you; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have MY JOY fulfilled in themselves. (Jesus is speaking of the JOY of IMMORTALITY and being HIGHLY EXALTED to sit on his Father's throne at his Father's right hand. So Jesus is saying that he gave us this same PROMISE of JOY to receive ETERNAL LIFE in the world to come. Jesus is praying that we are not deceived so that this promise of eternal life will be FULFILLED IN us. And in the same way, Jesus believed that the Father would GLORIFY him with this GLORY of eternal life that was prophesied for him to receive from before the world was)

14. I have given them your word; and the world has hated them, because they are NOT of the world, EVEN AS I am not of the world. (This does NOT mean that we are ALIENS from another world. But rather, it means that we are NOT of this present world of darkness and sin, because we OBEYED the WORD of Almighty God and the WORDS of His SON Jesus who died for our sins to make us free from the bondage of sin. And thus, we have been born from above to no long be children of this world. The world hates us because we preach AGAINST SIN and the darkness of this present world that blinds their eyes to the word of TRUTH. Jesus was NOT of this world the SAME WAY that WE are NOT of this world. The only difference is that Jesus became a MASTER of overcoming sin to live his ENTIRE life WITHOUT sin. Whereas WE are still LEARNING to be the master over sin knowing that sin has no more dominion of us. Please read the study “HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE FREE FROM SIN!”)

15. I pray NOT that you should take them out of the world, BUT that you should KEEP them FROM the EVIL. (You see Jesus was IN the WORLD, but Jesus was NOT OF the world, in that he kept himself FROM EVIL that was IN the world)

16. They are NOT of the world, EVEN AS I am NOT of the world. (Some Christian churches DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that Jesus PREEXISTED IN HEAVEN for ALL ETERNITY as God the SON because Jesus said that he was NOT of this WORLD in John 8:23 “And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.” But yet, here in this verse Jesus plainly states EVEN AS or in the SAME WAY that I am from ABOVE and NOT of this WORLD so ALSO are YOU from ABOVE and NOT of this WORLD. What Jesus is saying is that we are born of the word of God from above to become children of God. And then, WE as BELIEVERS, follow the voice and words from ABOVE and we do NOT follow the voice of the god of this present WORLD. In John 8:23 Jesus was speaking to UNBELIEVERS. We only become not of this world AFTER we believe on Jesus as the CHRIST, the SON OF the living God who suffered and died on the cross for our sin and that God raised Jesus from the dead. Please read the study “ARE ALL PEOPLE THE CHILDREN OF GOD?” Almighty God the Father GAVE His human Son to have life in himself even as the Father has always possessed immortality in himself. Please read 1 Timothy 6:14-16 and John 5:26,27 on your own)

17. Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.

18. AS you have sent me into the world, EVEN SO have I ALSO sent them into the world. (Some Christian churches DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that Jesus was SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN INTO the world by God the Father as a PREEXISTING God the SON who is CO-EQUAL and CO-ETERNAL with God the Father to be incarnated as a human being, the Son of man. And they further teach that God the Son YET STILL REMAINED to be FULLY ALMIGHTY God and fully man at the same time. And thus, to THEM, Jesus had TWO natures at the SAME time, one divine and one human. But yet the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us in this verse that in the SAME WAY that Almighty God SENT His SON Jesus into the world, so also Jesus has SENT us who believe INTO the world. So then, are we to believe that WE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AS WELL just like we are dogmatically taught in some churches that these same words in other places in the Bible mean ONLY when they are speaking of JESUS being SENT INTO the world? NO! A thousand times NO! These words simply mean that Jesus sent us who believe OUT into the world. The Greek word TRANSLATED as sent here LITERALLY means COMMISSION. The word commission means to entrust one with supervisory power and authority in order to accomplish a task that he or she is given to accomplish. I use an OLD American Heritage Dictionary, but the link above is close to the original meaning of the word commission. I give you all three links to show you that the Greek word translated as SENT means that Jesus was COMMISSIONED to go OUT into the world and not that Jesus was sent down from heaven into the earth. These words have nothing whatsoever to do with a PREEXISTING Jesus up in heaven who was supposedly SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN INTO the world. To ME the only way that I myself can rationally see Jesus preexisting is as the IMAGE that Yahweh had WITHIN Himself in His MIND and PLAN or desire to one day in the fullness of time to BRING FORTH His only BEGOTTEN SON into the world by PERFORMING His SPOKEN WORD or PROPHECY that He ORDAINED from BEFORE the foundation of the world. And by the foundation of the world, the Bible itself means God recreating or RESTORING the earth that became void to be made habitable once again to be REPLENISHED by humans made a little LOWER than the angels, according to Hebrews 2:5-13)

19. And for their sake I sanctify myself, (Jesus sanctified himself THROUGH the ETERNAL SPIRIT, Almighty God, the FATHER who DWELT IN His human SON, Jesus, to EMPOWER his SON to live WITHOUT SIN. Jesus also used the word of TRUTH, the promises WRITTEN in God's word to defeat and overcome our enemy Satan, the devil. Jesus did this to be the lamb without spot or blemish to free us from the bondage of sin. His atonement cleansed us from all of our past sins so that the Father could also come and DWELL IN us who believe so that we could be endued with POWER from on high to do the SAME works that Jesus did through the FATHER who DWELT IN him) that (Or so that, or in order that) they ALSO might be sanctified through the truth.

20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them ALSO which shall believe on me through their word; (In other words, Jesus prayed this prayer for EVERY BELIEVER in Jesus Christ being the SON OF Almighty God the Father who was SENT and ANOINTED by his God and Father to die for the sins of the whole world so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES shall NOT perish, but shall be GLORIFIED with ETERNAL LIFE in the world to come)

21. That they ALL may be ONE; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they ALSO may be ONE in us: that the world may believe that you have sent (Or commissioned) me. (Here in this verse we see that WE as believers are made to be ONE WITH Almighty God the Father in the SAME way that Jesus said that he was ONE with the Father in John 10:30. And that is another verse used to try and prove that Jesus himself is THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God the FATHER, simply because Jesus said the words, “I and my FATHER are ONE”. Now if so be that the words in John 10:30 prove that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God, then these words of Jesus in John 17:21 also prove that WE as believers are ALMIGHTY God as well. These are the SAME exact Greek words that are translated as ONE in BOTH of the passages of Scripture. Please read the study called “JOHN 10:30- I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!” for a more in-depth study on this subject of why the doctrine of the Trinity is a FALSE teaching that took many centuries to develop and was never taught by Jesus nor his disciples)

22. And the GLORY which you GAVE me I HAVE GIVEN them; that (Or so that) they may be one, even as we are one: (Please notice the PAST tense is used but Jesus has NOT YET been glorified and neither have we yet been glorified. That is because it is a PROPHECY both for Jesus and for us. Jesus is speaking of the PROMISE of ETERNAL LIFE that the Father GAVE to the Son of MAN Jesus and now Jesus has GIVEN us this SAME promise of this SAME GLORY even though we have not yet received our GLORY of ETERNAL LIFE as yet. Jesus has already received his promise of the glory of immortality BEFORE the world yet to come WAS or is. Remember the Hebrew way of thinking and speaking calling things as if they already are in existence BEFORE they actually are brought into existence. We do not have an English word to fit this kind of meaning so the translators chose to use the past tense WAS when it should have been translated as before the world TO BE)

23. I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent (Commissioned) me, and have loved them, as you have loved me. (This verse is speaking of our promised resurrection and being GLORIFIED with ETERNAL LIFE at the second coming of Jesus. It is only then that the WORLD will KNOW that Jesus truly is the MESSIAH)

24. Father, I will that they ALSO, whom you HAVE GIVEN me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my GLORY, which you HAVE GIVEN me: (PAST tense and yet Jesus had NOT YET actually been GLORIFIED as yet. So again, we see this Jewish Hebrew mindset of thinking and speaking or calling things that are NOT YET AS IF they already are) for (Or BECAUSE) you loved me BEFORE the foundation of the world. (Jesus is speaking of his PROMISED resurrection from the dead before it actually took place. And Jesus is speaking in the past tense of his having been GIVEN his new GLORIFIED immortal body of flesh and bone before it took place. Jesus was resurrected and on the same day he ascended into heaven to be glorified with the divine nature of immortality never to die again. Jesus then descended back down to the earth to show his disciples for forty days that he was alive forevermore to never die again before Jesus ascended back up into heaven where he was before right after his resurrection. You see, Jesus told Mary Magdalene NOT to touch him BECAUSE he had NOT YET ASCENDED to his God and Father. BUT then later that same evening Jesus appeared to his disciples and asked them the TOUCH him to prove to them that he was NOT a SPIRIT or a GHOST, but rather that he had a BODY, a new GLORIFIED IMMORTAL BODY of flesh and bone. God LOVED his yet UNBORN Son before the creation of this present world having his SON in his mind as the reason FOR creating this present world BEFORE the foundation of this present world. Some try to use verses that SEEM to be saying that God created the worlds BY Jesus. But the truth of the matter is that Greek word “dia” also means FOR and FOR the SAKE. So then, it was for the sake of His Son rejoicing IN the habitable part of the earth AS ONE brought up by His side just like we rejoice as parents PREPARING a PLACE FOR our yet UNBORN child rejoicing over them AS ONE who has already been born. Plain and simple Yahweh prepared a place FOR His Son to live before His Son was born and before Yahweh became a Father. God made the worlds FOR His Son to INHERIT)

25. O righteous Father, the world has not known (Understood) you: but I have known (Or I have understood your words and have talked with) you, and these have known that you have sent (Commissioned) me. (This teaches us that people can KNOW God without having preexisted in heaven with God from all eternity past. Jesus PERCEIVED from reading the Scriptures and LISTENING to the voice of his God and Father from above, and little by little, day by day, Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and favor of God. Jesus came to understand that the Scriptures spoke of HIM. In other words, Jesus LEARNED to KNOW God by being taught of the Holy Spirit morning by morning and conversing with God in prayer. And Jesus TAUGHT his disciples to KNOW God and how to pray to the Father as well)

26. And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

So then, all the verses that we have taken a CLOSER look at thus far have NOT proven without fail the DOCTRINE of the Trinity where Jesus supposedly preexisted in heaven as God the SON for all eternity with Almighty God the Father and was CO-EQUAL with Almighty God the Father.

But rather, the CONTEXT of every one of these verses of Scripture along with the rest of God's word proves, without fail, and beyond any shadow of a doubt that BOTH the doctrine of the Trinity AND the doctrine of the deity of Jesus during the days of his FLESH having TWO natures at the SAME time are FALSE teachings. And thus, they both need to be DRASTICALLY reformed and rewritten or thrown out and rejected altogether. Yes, I believe the Jesus is DEITY by being MADE Deity BY his God and Father AFTER the cross. And I no longer believe in ANY form of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Now let us read Psalm 89:19-27, which clearly teaches us that Almighty God Himself is THE ROCK and God OF His SON, Jesus.

Psalm 89:19-27.

“Then you (My God and My Father) spoke in VISION to your holy one (The Bible teaches us that Jesus separated himself to pray to his God and Father. And we are also told that it would take all the books in the world to tell of ALL that Jesus did, and even then, all would not be told. So even though the New Testament does not specifically tell us of Jesus having a vision, except for the vision on the mount of transfiguration. there is the prophecy of God that teaches of His Messiah having visions. But even in other visions Jesus spoke of having, we do not know all the details of what Jesus saw in those visions. However, we still do indeed know from this verse that Almighty God spoke to His SON Jesus through visions and revelations by the Holy Spirit that the Scripture testified of the Son of man whom Yahweh had raised up in righteousness and chosen to be the Savior. So then, Almighty God spoke to Jesus in a VISION), and said, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one CHOSEN OUT of the people.

20. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: (As in other places, David is a SHADOW or a FIGURE of Jesus. So this is a PROPHECY of the coming Messiah, Jesus, the Son of man and the Son of Almighty God. In other words, through VISIONS and other means Almighty God REVEALED to the Son of man Jesus that the Scriptures spoke of HIM. This vision is saying to Jesus, as Jesus read the Scripture, YOU, Jesus, ARE the ONE that I have chosen out of the people to EXALT you)

21. With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26. He (Still peaking of the Son of MAN, Jesus teaching him that he IS the Messiah prophesied to come) shall cry unto me, You are MY father, MY God, and the ROCK of MY salvation. (Jesus was saved from hell. God did not leave the soul of His Son Jesus in hell. But rather, God saved his soul alive by resurrecting the Son of MAN from the dead and giving or GLORIFYING the Son of MAN with His own glory of the divine nature of eternal life)

27. Also I will MAKE him, my FIRSTBORN, higher than the kings of the earth.”

In verse 27, we clearly see that this passage of Scripture is a PROPHECY of Jesus whom Almighty God will make to be His FIRSTBORN child to BECOME His King of kings. Jesus is described as being the FIRSTBORN of every creature in Colossians 1:15, the FIRSTBORN from the dead in Colossians 1:18, and the FIRSTBORN among MANY brethren in Romans 8:29. And Jesus is the only one whom the Bible teaches us that Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED and gave a name ABOVE every other name except for Yahweh himself to be made Yahweh's King of kings and a Lord of lords on the earth to rule FOR Yahweh during the seventh 1000 year long DAY of Yahweh's REST.

Please read ALL the related studies that I have listed in the side menu related to this subject on whether or not Jesus preexisted. They are all listed in five different links under the headings called >>>A LIST OF STUDIES ON THE TRINITY!<<<, >>>IS JESUS THE CREATOR?<<<, >>> WAS JESUS CREATED?<<<, >>>VERSES USED TO TEACH THAT JESUS PREEXISTED!<<<, and >>>IS THE DOCTRINE OF ONENESS BIBLICAL?<<<

Now, to me, the REASON that some Christians so desperately TRY to prove that Jesus preexisted is because of what they have been wrongly taught that Jesus must, without fail, BE the ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF in the flesh or it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to have saved us UNLESS he was Almighty God Himself in the flesh.

And by believing this one wrong teaching, then all kinds of false teachings have cropped up ranging from Jesus being Yahweh Himself, as in, Jesus is ONE and the self SAME being as Yahweh the FATHER, to Jesus being God the Son the second person of a Trinity Godhead, and to Jesus being a separate divine spirit being named the Word who was WITH Yahweh at his SIDE, who Almighty God used the create all other things. But ALL of these church denominational doctrines are man-made THEORIES. And they were all created by the minds of men to TRY and resolve what THEY see as a CONTRADICTION in God's word. We are clearly taught in the OLD Testament that makes it perfectly clear that there is only ONE God who alone is the creator. And, therefore, there CANNOT be TWO Gods. But in the NEW Testament Jesus is called GOD AND the Father is called God which makes TWO Gods, according to THERE way of understanding the word “God”.

So then, to THEM, in their line of thinking, the only way that THEY can see for there NOT to be a CONTRADICTION in God's word is to have Jesus BE Yahweh HIMSELF. So they came up with all these doctrines of men that dogmatically demand that there is NO OTHER WAY to solve this problem. And thus, WE, as in, each one of these DIFFERENT church denominations claim that they alone have the ONLY TRUTH and every other Christians are wrong. And thus, they keep their followers believing ONLY what their own church denomination teaches them.

But with someone with a real sharp mind like yourself who can THINK things through for yourself. You have realized that they ALL cannot possibly have the TRUTH because they all teach things differently from each other. So you have set out to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of God on this matter for yourself. So with boldness and NOT with pride, I say unto you that it was the Holy Spirit who has led you here to AMatterOfTruth.com giving ALL the glory to our creator. I do not say this to bring any glory to myself. I say this because you would not be here or ANYWHERE else that teaches the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of Almighty God if it was not God who was leading you.

This is why I say that you would not be here reading this study in God's word if it was not God Himself who led you here by His Holy Spirit. This does not mean that some come to my sight sent by Satan to stir up strife in that, they argue and debate that I am sending people to hell by stripping Jesus of his Deity. Again, I teach that Jesus is deity, in that Jesus was MADE Deity BY his God and Father AFTER the cross just like the Bible itself teaches. I teach that Jesus CAME OUT FROM Deity just like the Bible itself teaches. But what I do NOT teach is that Jesus was Deity DURING the days of his FLESH because the Bible ITSELF does NOT teach us that Jesus was Deity DURING the days of his FLESH. Jesus said that he could do NOTHING OF himself and that it was the Father DWELLING IN him who did the works. So the Bible itself does NOT teach that Jesus was fully Almighty God and fully a man at the same time having two natures at the SAME time, one divine, and one human during the days of his FLESH.

Now when I first began QUESTIONING what I had been taught, there was no Internet. And the only books I could find were either written by Oneness believers or Trinitarian believers or by those Christians that these two mainstream church denominations say are cults. Well, deep within myself I knew full well that the Oneness Pentecostal Christians are in error by saying that Jesus IS the FATHER Himself, as in, Jesus is one and the self same BEING as the Father. I see, that the Bible ITSELF clearly teaches us that Jesus is NOT the Father and that Jesus is a separated person from the Father. For you see, The Father has His OWN soul and will and Jesus has his OWN soul and will.

So at first, I was just questioning the ETERNAL preexistence of Jesus NEVER having a BEGINNING because it is just mere common sense that a Son must be BORN to come into existence at some point in time.

I mean that it never made any sense to ME as to HOW Jesus is called the SON OF God and yet SUPPOSEDLY the Son of God never have a BEGINNING. Again, just mere common sense clearly teaches us that a Son is BORN, which is WHEN that Son came into existence. But this simple logic of Jesus having a BEGINNING is mocked by those who dogmatically demand that Jesus IS Yahweh Himself having TWO natures at the SAME time during the days of his flesh. So Christians are being “lorded over” with intimidation and fear that if they QUESTION what they are being taught then they are not truly saved.

It was when I read in a writing from the early church against the heresy of Jesus having a beginning that I stopped being intimidated by Trinitarian and Oneness Pentecostal Christians. The early church controversy that I am referring to was where one side was saying that Jesus being BEGOTTEN demands that Jesus HAD a BEGINNING. Finally, the other side, the Trinitarian side, after becoming so frustrated became angry and argued that Jesus was begotten WITHOUT being begotten. It was right then that I saw that those who teach that Jesus did NOT have a BEGINNING have NO SOUND BIBLICAL proof or they would have presented it.

So I followed the leading of the Holy Spirit to see if the verses being used to TRY and prove that Jesus did NOT have a BEGINNING were being taken OUT of CONTEXT. And the studies I have written are the result of obeying the leading of the Holy Spirit to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of God no matter where it would lead me.

Now there are MANY, MANY verses that the Holy Spirit gave to me, but two of those verses stand out to me which again to ME, prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that it was impossible for Jesus to preexist as a SEPARATE divine ETERNAL Spirit being who was WITH Yahweh AT his SIDE either with a beginning or without a beginning.

And these two verses are 1 Timothy 6:14-16, which clearly teaches us that there was ONLY ONE who has always possessed IMMORTALITY who is clearly IDENTIFIED and being the INVISIBLE Eternal Spirit that the Bible itself ALWAYS identifies as being the FATHER who Jesus came to SHOW. And John 5:26,27 teaches us that Yahweh the Father GAVE His human Son TO BE HAVING life in himself EVEN AS the Father HAS life in Himself.

I cover these verses and many other verses in the many studies I have written on the subject. I have given the links to some of those studies in this study above and at the very end or you may search the menu list of all the studies I have written on this and other subjects taught in God's word of truth, the Holy Bible.

Thanks for reading and may God bless you richly as you continue to seek the truth of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Again, please read all of the studies under the heading >>>A LIST OF STUDIES ON THE TRINITY!<<< And also read the studies listed in the link below.

Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Brother Mark.

RETURN TO HOMEPAGE

AMatterOfTruth.com

VERSES USED TO TEACH THAT JESUS PREEXISTED!

To me, the best way to know the ONE true God in ONE person is to know who Jesus TRULY IS according to the WHOLE word of Almighty God so please read ALL the studies under the heading >>>WHO IS JESUS ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?<<< and you will see that the Bible itself teaches us that Jesus was CREATED by his God and Father. And if you have any questions related to the correct meaning of certain verses of Scripture on this subject of who Jesus is please read all the studies under the two headings >>>A LIST OF STUDIES ON THE TRINITY!<<< and >>>VERSES USED TO TEACH THAT JESUS PRE-EXISTED!<<< These two headings have ALL the studies that I have on who Jesus truly is according to what the Bible itself teaches us in simplicity. I compiled these three headings to make it easy for my readers to send just one, two, or three links to those you desire to help understand what the Bible itself teaches concerning who Jesus is in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.

Thanks for reading and may God bless you richly as you continue to seek the truth of the whole word of Almighty God.

Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Brother Mark.

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V-44. John 17:5 Proves Jesus PREEXISTED!