DOES JOHN 17:5 TEACH US THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?
Do the words of Jesus praying to the Father saying glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began dogmatically mean that Jesus preexisted as the ETERNAL SON of God in eternity past without ever having a beginning as some claim by demanding that there is absolutely no other way to interpret this verse in John 17:5.
I mean THINK this through for yourself. IF SO BE that Jesus PREEXISTED in some literal form whether it be as the Son of Almighty God being the second person of the trinity, or whether it be that Jesus preexisted as an ANGEL or some SPIRIT being called the WORD that was WITH God, but yet was ONE and the SELF SAME BEING as Almighty God himself, then WHY does the word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible teach us in Luke 2:52 that Jesus INCREASED in FAVOR with BOTH Almighty God the Father and man?
“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.”
Now IF SO BE that Jesus himself had always PREEXISTED with Almighty God or was Almighty God himself, then this would mean that Jesus would have ALREADY had or possessed ALL the favor he had always had preexisting with God from all eternity past. But yet the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and favor WITH GOD.
Other verses like John 17:5 that are used to dogmatically demand without fail that Jesus preexisted from all eternity past and therefore concluded that Jesus had NO BEGINNING ever and thus is CO ETERNAL with Almighty God the Father can be interpreted in other ways that do NOT contradict any other part of God's word. I cover many if not all those other verse in a larger study called "DID JESUS PREEXIST AS THE SON OF GOD?, but in this study I will focus on John 17:5 where Jesus is praying to his Father asking Yahweh to glorify him with the glory he had BEFORE the foundation of the world.
“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”
Now again when one views this one verse ALONE and APART from the REST of God's word it does indeed SEEM to be saying that Jesus PREEXISTED before the world was created with Almighty God as a SEPARATE BEING from Almighty God the Father who shared the GLORY that belonged to Almighty God himself.
But when this verse and others are interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God, then it becomes clear that Jesus UNDERSTOOD the SCRIPTURES that spoke OF HIM being the one prophesied to come. In other words, Jesus understood of the glory that the SON OF God would be glorified with by the Father was prophesied from the BEGINNING. Jesus understood that the scriptures spoke of HIM so when he read Proverbs 8 Jesus saw the THOUGHTS and PLANS of Almighty God an how his SON REJOICED before him in the inhabitable part of the earth BEFORE the earth was ever created for mankind.
Please take a close look at Proverbs 8:22-31
“The Lord (YHWH Almighty God the owner and possessor of all, who we now know as the Father) possessed (acquired, owned, brought forth, formed, created) me (Jesus or more precisely the WORD, as in, the Word literally being a second separate divine Spirit being, OR the Word being the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God, which to me agrees better with the WHOLE word of God. Before Yahweh actually creates anything he FORMS an IMAGE WITHING himself of WHAT he desire to create. And then he SPEAKS FORTH the WORD of that IMAGE that is WITHIN himself to BECOME that IMAGE) in the beginning of his way, before HIS works of old (speaking of Almighty God's works).
23. I (Jesus, the SON in the form of the IMAGE of God's WORD that he spoke through his prophets and had them write it down for all generations) was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. (this means that the image within Yahweh was to ordain his yet coming Son to be his King of kings and Lord of lords to rule for him during his day of rest in the 1000 year long day of the Lord. This agrees with the origin or Jesus being slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world was from everlasting or ever the earth was, and we all know and agree that Jesus was NOT slain in eternity past before mankind was ever created.)
24. When there were no depths, I (Jesus, the SON in the form of his WORD) was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. (this means that Yahweh desiring to one day have a Son was brought forth as an IMAGE within Yahweh before Yahweh had any other images of what he wants to create, which teaches us that ALL God created he created FOR and FOR the SAKE of his yet coming Son.)
25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I (Jesus, the SON, in the form of his WORD was) brought forth:
26. While as yet HE (Almighty God who we now know as the Father, but was not yet actually a Father as yet, because his SON Jesus was NOT YET BORN or begotten seeing that HE Almighty God) had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27. When HE (Almighty God who we know know as the Father) prepared the heavens, I (Jesus, the SON, in the form of the WORD only) was there: when HE (Almighty God the Father) set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28. When HE (Almighty God the Father) established the clouds above: when HE (Almighty God the Father) strengthened the fountains of the deep.
29. When HE (Almighty God the Father) gave to the sea HIS (God the Father’s) decree, that the waters should not pass HIS (God the Father’s) commandment: when HE (God the Father) appointed the foundations of the earth:
30. Then I (Jesus, the SON in the form of the WORD. Remember that the LITERAL translation of John 1:1 is as follows: "In beginning was the SAYING and the SAYING was TOWARD (or more precisely WITHIN ) the God, and God was the SAYING.") was BY him,(or with his Father, the Word was WITH God in the THOUGHTS of God or came to be in existence as as result of God giving BIRTH to his FIRST SPOKEN WORD to bring forth a SPIRIT being as his SON that God called his WORD) as one brought up with him: and I (Jesus, the SON being in the form of the WORD whether that be the IMAGE of God's THOUGHTS or an actual separate SPIRIT being as some dogmatically demand.) was daily HIS delight, rejoicing always before HIM;
31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of HIS earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.”
One can readily see from this passage of scripture that word of TRUTH is saying that Yahweh, Almighty God the Father HIMSELF, was behind all that was created and that he or it, God's WORD or SAYING that was WITHIN Almighty God as his IMAGE of desire withing himself of one day bringing forth his only BEGOTTEN Son was there with the one true God BEFORE the FOUNDATIONS of the EARTH as God's delight rejoicing before Almighty God IN the inhabitable part of the EARTH that had NOT YET been CREATED.
So clearly to ME, Jesus as God's SON was with God at this time before the foundation of the world ONLY in God's THOUGHTS, in God's PLAN or IMAGE within himself to one day bring forth his SON in to existence. The reason I say this is because HOW could Jesus rejoice before his God and Father IN the inhabitable part of the EARTH when the earth had NOT yet been created as yet EXCEPT in the MIND and the PLAN of ALMIGHTY God.
So you see, when Jesus said glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began to me Jesus was praying to his God and Father, I am getting ready to go through a time very shortly Father that when I take on the sins of the world you are going to turn your back on me, so I pray that you return me to the glorious delight that you had for me before the world began and before I was ever BORN.
You see, Jesus knew the scriptures spoke of him. Jesus knew that he was the chosen one sent by Almighty God to become that sacrifice for mankind, because the Spirit of God taught him morning by morning from the scriptures. Jesus saw the END from the Scriptures, but he still had to BELIEVE. And because of the joy that was set before Jesus he endured the cross for us knowing that his God and Father is FAITHFUL to perform his spoken word. So then, because Jesus became obedient even unto death on the cross Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED his Son and GAVE him a name that is above every name.
Also John 17:5 in the LITERAL Greek can be translated in a number of different ways. First let us read this verse again from the King James version.
“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I HAD with you BEFORE the world WAS.”
Please notice that I have emphasized three words. The word that is translated as "I HAD" is the Greek word "ECHO" Strong's # 2192, which means to hold, to keep, or to be as a possession or as a condition. In other words, in the light of the REST of Gods's word Jesus is asking his God and Father to glorify him with the glory which God has promised and is holding in store for him. Just like we do not actual have or possess eternal life in ourselves as yet, but rather this joy is set before us as a sure PROMISED being reserved in heaven waiting for us.
Thayer's Greek to English Lexicon defines this word "ECHO" to mean to have in store. So this word TRANSLATED as "I HAD" in the King James Version could just as easily been translated as "I have IN STORE" with you before the world was, as in, before the world yet to come is existing. Hebrews 12:1-4 teaches us that Almighty God set something that brought JOY in view before his Son Jesus which gave his SON strength to ENDURE the suffering of the cross.
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR (or BECAUSE OF) the JOY that was SET BEFORE him ENDURED the cross, despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself,lest you be wearied and faint in your minds.
4. You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.”
Now we as Christians ALSO have a PRIZE that is set before us to strengthen us to ENDURE unto the end that is RESERVED in STORE for us up in heaven, so why is it so hard for some Christians to see that Jesus was simply praying and asking God to glorify his Son with the glory that was being RESERVED in heaven for him.
The word that is translated as "BEFORE" can also mean previous and the word that is translated as "WAS" also means "TO BE". Now some Bible scholars interpret John 17:5 to mean that Jesus was asking to be glorified with the glory which Almighty God the Father was HOLDING IN STORE for him to enjoy prior to the world yet to come. This interpretation does agree with the truth of the whole word of God, which teaches us that Jesus is in heaven NOW in his glorified state sitting at the right hand of his Father on his Father's throne.
But even if one dogmatically demands that the writer did not mean the world to come and truly meant before the foundation of this present world, the fact that a JOY was set before Jesus still holds true. In other words, Jesus asking the Father to glorify him with the JOY that was set before him still agrees with the whole word of Almighty God as we have already seen from Proverbs chapter 8 where Jesus rejoiced in the habitable place of the earth BEFORE the earth was every created.
So to ME, the reason that some Christians INTERPRET John 17:5 to dogmatically mean before this present world if to try and prove the doctrine of the trinity. For you see dear child of God, UNTIL those who teach the doctrine of the trinity can PROVE beyond any shadow of a doubt the Jesus PREEXISTED AS God's ETERNAL DIVINE SON without EVER having any kind of beginning, the they cannot prove their doctrine of the trinity.
And Proverbs 8:22-31 proves that Jesus did indeed HAVE a BEGINNING and Proverbs 8:29-31 proves that Yahweh's Son was NOT LITERALLY THERE at his SIDE rejoicing IN the habitable part of the earth BEFORE this present world WAS.
“When HE (Almighty God the Father) gave to the sea HIS (God the Father’s)decree, that the waters should not pass HIS (God the Father’s) commandment: when HE (God the Father) appointed the foundations of the earth:
30. Then I (Jesus, the SON in the form of the WORD, because the word was WITHIN God.) was BY him,(or with his Father, the Word was WITH God in the THOUGHTS of God or came to be in existence as as result of God giving BIRTH to his FIRST SPOKEN WORD to bring forth a SPIRIT being as his SON that God called his WORD) AS ONE brought up with him: and I (Jesus, the SON being in the form of the WORD whether that be the IMAGE of God's THOUGHTS or and actual separate SPIRIT being) was daily HIS delight, rejoicing always before HIM;
31. Rejoicing IN the habitable part of HIS earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.”
Can you not see dear child of God that it is impossible for God's Son to ALREADY BE rejoicing IN the HABITABLE part of the EARTH BEFORE the foundation of this present world that had NOT yet been created by Yahweh. The word of truth says that God's Son was brought up AS ONE that was WITH him at his side. Can you not see that this was the IMAGE of what God desired to be that was WITHIN himself to one day be brought forth into existence. This is a PROPHECY of Yahweh's yet COMING Son into existence. Please read the entire study called "DID JESUS PREEXIST AS THE SON OF GOD?", but for now let us continue this study in God;s word on John 17:5.
In 1 Peter 1:3-13 we are taught us that the prophets of old were desiring to look into this glory that was to follow in the world to come.
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6. Wherein you greatly REJOICE, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and GLORY at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8. Whom having not seen, you love; in whom, though now you see him not, yet believing, you REJOICE with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9. Receiving the END of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them (the scriptures of prophecy) did signify, when it (the scriptures of prophecy) testified BEFORE HAND the sufferings of Christ (The ANOINTED servant of God), AND the GLORY that should FOLLOW. (In other words, Jesus knew that the scriptures spoke of HIM and he was asking his God and Father in John 17:4 to be GLORIFIED with the Glory that was TO BE GIVEN to his ANOINTED elect servant, who was PROPHESIED in the scriptures. Jesus knew from the SCRIPTURES of the glory that awaited him that WAS promised to him to receive before the world yet to come actually comes.)
12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13. Wherefore gird up the loins o your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is TO BE be BROUGHT unto you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ;”
So then, like WE know from the scripture of our glory PROMISE to us for overcoming that is YET TO BE brought WITH Jesus AT his coming, so I also believe that Jesus UNDERSTOOD that the scriptures spoke of HIM. And thus Jesus knew that this GLORY was stored up in heaven being RESERVED for him. So in John 17:5 Jesus is simply asking his God and Father to glorify him with the ETERNAL LIFE that was reserved for him by his Father's side which was planned for his SON BEFORE the foundation of the world and certainly given to him before the world to come.
Let us now read the entire chapter of John 17, all 26 verses, with the focus on John 17:22 where Jesus GAVE us the same GLORY that Jesus is ASKING in prayer to be GLORIFIED with the GLORY that he had BEFORE the world ever was by Almighty God the Father.
But I want you to read this chapter with the Hebrew Jewish mindset in the way that they talked and understood things. What I mean by this is that many things written in the Bible are written in the PAST tense, but yet they are speaking of a FUTURE event. In other words, the GLORY that Jesus was asking to be glorified with is the PROMISE of ETERNAL LIFE, which is the SAME glory that Jesus has ALREADY GIVEN US as believers.
It is like unto we are told in scripture that we HAVE eternal life, as in, we have already been given eternal life in the PAST when we first accepted Jesus as our savior, but yet in truth we do NOT actually possess eternal life in ourselves. It is a PROMISE given to us that we do NOT actually receive, until we overcome and are given eternal life in the world yet to come. It is this mindset of Jewish thinking of past already existing, as in, God calling things as if they already are before they come into existence, that I want you to read the ENTIRE CONTEXT of John 17:5.
“These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the HOUR is come; glorify your Son, that your Son also may glorify you: (In other words, Jesus is asking the Father to NOT leave his soul in hell, but to GLORIFY him by RAISING him from the dead and GIVE him the PROMISE REWARD of IMMORTALITY that was ordained before the foundation of the world.)
2. AS you have GIVEN him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him. (this is speaking of the second coming of Jesus where Jesus has been GIVEN the authority to give eternal life to all who have endure unto the end holding fast to their faith and obedience to the WORDS of Jesus that were sent down from heaven and given to Jesus to preach and teach to his fellow man. Jesus came to show us the FATHER and HIS WORDS. Jesus knew the scriptures spoke of him and he knew that Yahweh would HIGHLY EXALT him and also GIVE him life TO HAVE in himself and given him the power and authority to give eternal life to whom so ever the Son wills to give. So Jesus is saying here AS or in the same that that you have PROMISED in your word that you will give me power over all flesh and that you shall give eternal life to as many who believe on me and you who commissioned me. To dumb this down a bit, this is like us asking the Father in prayer on our death bed to not forget his PROMISE to us to GLORIFY us in the world to come WITH that GLORY we HAD AS his PROMISE dwelling in us by FAITH before we actually receive this glory of eternal life in the world yet to come.)
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that we must have BOTH the SON and the Father in order to receive eternal life. Therefore if we do NOT believe that Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God the Father, then we are NOT truly believing and obeying what Almighty God desires us to believe and thus we do NOT have the Father either. This is why God rejected his chosen people the Jews, who rejected that Almighty God had a SON. The same is true of the Muslims, who do NOT believe that God has a SON. ONLY Christians believe that Almighty God has a SON. The WHOLE foundation of Christianity is that we believe that Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God the Father, who suffered and died on the cross for our sins and God raised him form the dead to eternal life. So why do some churches dogmatically demand that Jesus is the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, when the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that we must believe in BOTH? Jesus is saying, and THIS is ETERNAL LIFE that mankind must believe that YOU FATHER are the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God who sent your only begotten SON Jesus to die for their sins.)
4. I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the WORK which you gave me to do. (in other words, Jesus is saying that he was that GOOD and FAITHFUL servant to do ALL that his God and Father led him to do so in the next verse Jesus is simply asking the Father for his reward of eternal life that was ordained from before the world was.)
6. I have manifested your name unto the men which you gave me out of the world: yours they were, and you gave them me; and they have kept your word. (Please notice that verse 5 is sandwiched between two verses where Jesus is basically saying I have done all you have led me to do so NOW do what you promised to do if I was found faith to obey you to do all your will. Glorify me with your OWN SELF. Glorify me with the same IMMORTAL LIFE that your yourself have always possessed. Glorify me with the JOY you set before me to ENDURE the cross that is ahead of me just hours away. As to verse 6 mankind will not be actually given TO Jesus UNTIL the SECOND COMING of Jesus. Even the wicked of mankind will be GIVEN to Jesus to break in pieces with a rod of iron, while ONLY the RIGHTEOUS who are IN Jesus Christ will be GLORIFIED with the IMMORTALITY of Almighty God the Father who ONLY has always possessed immortality. John 5:26,27 clearly teaches us that Jesus was GIVEN IMMORTALITY by his Goad and Father AFTER Jesus FINISHED the works that the Father led him to do. Please read the study “John 5:18-JESUS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD”)
8. For I have given unto them the WORDS which YOU GAVE ME;and they have received them, and have known SURELY that I CAME OUT FROM YOU, and they have believed that you did send me. (Please read the study "What Does JOHN 1:14 TRULY MEAN?", and "JOHN 1:1 THE WORD WAS GOD!", but for now please consider that the apostle of Jesus most definitely BELIEVED that the SPOKEN WORD that CAME OUT FROM Almighty God did indeed BRING Jesus INTO EXISTENCE by the WORD, the SPOKEN WORD being SENT from heaven down to the earth with the angel Gabriel who SPOKE the WORD of God to the virgin Mary and then when Mary AGREED saying BE it done ACCORDING to your WORD, then the WORD, the SPOKEN WORD was MADE or BECAME ALIVE in the womb of Mary to be BORN the Son of MAN who would be called the SON OF the HIGHEST other wise the disciples of Jesus would have never written and preach this MIRACULOUS BIRTH of Jesus. Plain and simple Jesus ONLY preexisted in the MIND and PLAN of Almighty God who ORDAINED his COMING SON to BE brought into existence in the fulness of time. Jesus CAME OUT FROM the Father and was NOT Almighty God the FATHER HIMSELF any more that ALL of creation that CAME OUT FROM Almighty God the Father of ALL.)
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be ONE, AS WE ARE. (Jesus is saying that he is leaving this world to ascend up to heaven to become ONE with the Father and he is praying that all believers will be KEPT unto that great and glorious day when we too shall be made ONE with the Father. The meaning of ONE here is speaking of being GLORIFIED with IMMORTALITY the same as Almighty God and NOT that we actually become one and the self same being as Almighty God the Father. Mormonism FALSELY teaches that we all shall PROGRESS to become God or many gods. Mormonism FALSELY teaches that Almighty God the Father was once a MAN who PROGRESSED to become Almighty God the Father. Please read the study “MORMONISM VERSES BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY!”)
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in you name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (some Christians who FALSELY teach that ALL of mankind will EVENTUALLY be SAVED argue that Judas was NOT LOST, but here in this verse Jesus says that Judas the son of perdition was lost. This FALSE teaching is called Universalism. Please read the study “IS UNIVERSALISM A SOUND BIBLICAL TEACHING?”)
13. And now come I to you; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have MY JOY fulfilled in themselves. (Jesus is speaking of the JOY of IMMORTALITY and being HIGHLY EXALTED to sit on his Father's throne at his Father's right hand. So Jesus is saying that he gave us this same PROMISE of JOY to receive ETERNAL LIFE in the world to come. Jesus is praying that we be not deceived so that this promise of eternal life will be FULFILLED IN US in the same way that Jesus is believing that the Father will GLORIFY him with this GLORY of eternal life that was ordained for him from before the world was.)
14. I have given them your word; and the world has hated them, because they are NOT of the world, EVEN AS I am not of the world. (this does NOT mean that we are ALIENS from another world, but rather that we are NOT of this present world of darkness and sin, because we OBEY the WORD of Almighty God and the WORDS of his SON Jesus who died for our sins to make us free from the bondage of sin. The world hates us because we preach AGAINST SIN and the darkness of this present world that blinds their eyes to the word of TRUTH. Jesus was NOT of this world the SAME WAY that WE are NOT of this world. This only difference is that Jesus became a MASTER of over coming sin to live his ENTIRE life WITHOUT sin. Whereas WE are still LEARNING. Please read the study “HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE FREE FROM SIN!”)
15. I pray NOT that you should take them out of the world, BUT that you should KEEP them FROM the EVIL. (You see Jesus was IN the WORLD, but Jesus was NOT OF the world, in that he kept himself FROM EVIL that was IN the world.)
16. They are NOT of the world, EVEN AS I am NOT of the world. (Some Christian churches DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that Jesus was PREEXISTED IN HEAVEN for ALL ETERNITY as God the SON, because Jesus said that he was NOT of the WORLD in John 8:23 “And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.” , but yet here in this verse Jesus plainly states EVEN AS or in the SAME WAY that I am ABOVE and NOT of this WORLD so ALSO are YOU from ABOVE and NOT of this WORLD. What Jesus is saying is that WE as BELIEVERS follow the voice and words form ABOVE and we do NOT follow to voice of the god of this present WORLD. In John 8:23 Jesus was speaking to UNBELIEVERS. We only become not of this world AFTER we believe on Jesus as the CHRIST, the SON OF the living God who suffered and died on the cross for our sin and the God raised Jesus from the dead and gave his Son to have live in himself even as the Father has always possessed immortality in himself. 1 Timothy 6:14-16 and John 5:26,27.)
18. AS you have sent me into the world, EVEN SO have I ALSO sent them into the world. (Some Christian churches DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that Jesus was SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN INTO the world by God the Father as a PREEXISTING God the SON who is CO EQUAL and CO ETERNAL with God the Father to be made a human being the Son of man and YET STILL REMAIN to be FULLY ALMIGHTY God and fully man at the same time. But yet the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us in this verse that in the SAME WAY that Almighty God SENT his SON Jesus into the world Jesus has ALSO SENT US INTO the world. So then, are we to believe that WE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AS WELL just like we are dogmatically taught in some churches that these same words in many other places in the Bible mean when they are speaking of JESUS being SENT INTO the world? NO! A thousand times NO! These words simple mean that Jesus and US are sent OUT into the world. The Greek word TRANSLATED as sent here LITERALLY means COMMISSION. The word commission means to entrust one with supervisory power and authority in order to accomplish a task that he or she is given to accomplish. I use an OLD American Heritage Dictionary, but the link above is close to the original meaning or the word commission. I give you all three links to show you that the Greek word translated as SENT means that Jesus was COMMISSIONED to go OUT into the world and not that Jesus was sent down from heaven into the earth. These words have nothing whatsoever to do with a PREEXISTING Jesus up in heaven who was supposedly SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN INTO the world. To ME the only way that I myself can rationally see Jesus preexisting is as the IMAGE that Yahweh had WITHIN himself in his MIND and PLAN or desire to one day in the fullness of time to BRING FORTH his only BEGOTTEN SON into the world by his SPOKEN WORD that was ORDAINED from BEFORE the foundation of the world.)
19. And for their sake I sanctify myself, (Jesus sanctified himself THROUGH the ETERNAL SPIRIT, Almighty God, the FATHER who DWELT IN his SON Jesus to EMPOWER his SON to live WITHOUT SIN. Jesus also used the word of TRUTH, the promises WRITTEN in God's word to defeat and over come our enemy Satan, the devil. Jesus did this to be the lamb without spot or blemish to free us from the bondage of sin. His atonement cleansed us from all of our pasts sins so that the Father could also come and DWELL IN US so that we could be endued with POWER from on high to do the SAME works that Jesus did through the FATHER who DWELT IN him.) that (or so that, or in order that) they ALSO might be sanctified through the truth.
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them ALSO which shall believe on me through their word; (in other words, Jesus is prayed this prayer for EVERY BELIEVER in Jesus Christ being the SON OF Almighty God the Father who was SENT and ANOINTED by his God and Father to die for the sins of the whole world so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES shall NOT perish, but shall be GLORIFIED with ETERNAL LIFE in the world to come.)
21. That they ALL may be ONE; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they ALSO may be ONE in us: that the world may believe that you have sent (commissioned) me. (here in this verse we see that WE as believers are made to be ONE WITH Almighty God the Father is the SAME way the Jesus was saying that he was ONE with the Father in John 10:30, which is another verse used to try and prove that Jesus himself is THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God the FATHER, simply because Jesus said the words, “I and my FATHER are ONE”. Now if so be that this those words in John 10:30 prove that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God, the these words of Jesus in John 17:21 also prove that WE as believers are ALMIGHTY God as well. These are the SAME exact Greek words that are translated as ONE in BOTH of the passages of scripture. Please read the study called “JOHN 10:30- I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!” for a more in depth study on this subject of why the doctrine of the trinity is a FALSE teaching that took many centuries to develop and was never taught by Jesus nor his disciples)
22. And the GLORY which you GAVE me I HAVE GIVEN them; that (or so that) they may be one, even as we are one: (Jesus is speaking of the PROMISE of ETERNAL LIFE that the Father GAVE to Jesus and now Jesus has GIVEN us this SAME promise of this SAME GLORY even though we have not yet received our GLORY of ETERNAL LIFE as yet. Jesus has already receive his promise of the glory of immortality BEFORE the world yet to come WAS or is. Remember the Hebrew way of thinking and speaking calling thins as if they already are in existence BEFORE they actually are brought into existence. We do not have and English word to fit this meaning so that translators chose to use the post tense WAS when it should have been translated as before to world TO BE.)
23. I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent (commissioned) me, and have loved them, as you have loved me. (this verse is speaking of our promised resurrection and being GLORIFIED with ETERNAL LIFE at the second coming of Jesus. It is only then that the WORLD will KNOW that Jesus truly is the MESSIAH.)
24. Father, I will that they ALSO, whom you HAVE GIVEN me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my GLORY, which you HAVE GIVEN me (PAST tense and yet Jesus had NOT YET actually been GLORIFIED as yet. So again we see this Jewish Hebrew mindset of thinking and speaking calling things that are NOT YET AS IF they already are.): for (or BECAUSE) you loved me BEFORE the foundation of the world. (Jesus is speaking of his resurrection from the dead and his being GIVEN his new GLORIFIED immortal body of flesh and bone, which Jesus descend back down to the earth to show his disciples for forty days before Jesus ascended back up into heaven where he was before right after his resurrection. You see Jesus told Mary Magdalene NOT to touch hen BECAUSE he had NOT YET ASCENDED to his God and Father. BUT then later that same evening Jesus appeared to his disciples and asked them the TOUCH him to prove to then that he was NOT a SPIRIT of a GHOST, but rather that he had a BODY, a new GLORIFIED IMMORTAL BODY of flesh and bone. God LOVED his yet UNBORN Son before the creation of this present world having his SON in his mind as the reason FOR creating this present world BEFORE the foundation of this present world. Some try to use verses that SEEM to be saying that God created the worlds BY Jesus. But the truth of the matter that Greek word "dia" also means FOR and FOR the SAKE of Son rejoicing in his Son rejoicing IN the habitable part of the earth AS ONE brought up by his side just like we rejoice as parents PREPARING a PLACE FOR our yet UNBORN child rejoicing over them AS ONE who has already been born.)
25. O righteous Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent (commissioned) me. (this teaches us that people can KNOW God without having preexisted in heaven with God from all eternity past. Jesus PERCEIVED from reading the scriptures and LISTENING to the voice of his God ad Father from above and little by little day by day INCREASED in wisdom and favor of God. Jesus came to understand that the scripture spoke of HIM. In other words, Jesus LEARNED to KNOW God and he TAUGHT his disciples to KNOW God as well.)
26. And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
So then, all the verses that we have taken a CLOSER look at thus far have NOT proven without fail the DOCTRINE of the trinity where Jesus preexisted in heaven as God the SON for all eternity with Almighty God the Father and was CO EQUAL with Almighty God the Father.
But rather the CONTEXT of every one of these verses along with the rest of God's word prove without fail that the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus are FALSE teachings, which need to be DRASTICALLY reformed and rewritten or thrown out and rejected altogether.
Now please read Psalm 89:19-27, which clearly teaches us that Almighty God himself is THE ROCK and God OF his SON Jesus.
20. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:(as in other places David is a SHADOW or a FIGURE or a PROPHECY or the coming Messiah, Jesus, the Son of Almighty God. In other words, through VISIONS and other means Almighty God REVEALED to Jesus that the scriptures spoke of HIM.)
21. With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26. He (speaking of Jesus) shall cry unto me, You are MY father, MY God, and the ROCK of my salvation. (Jesus was saved from hell. God did not leave the soul of his Son Jesus in hell, but rather saved his soul alive by resurrecting his Son from the dead and giving his Son eternal life.)
27. Also I will make him my FIRSTBORN, higher than the kings of the earth.”
In verse 27 we clearly see that this passage of scripture is a PROPHECY of Jesus whom Almighty God will make to be his FIRSTBORN child. Jesus is described as being the FIRSTBORN of every creature in Colossians 1:15, the FIRSTBORN from the dead in Colossians 1:18, and the FIRSTBORN among MANY brethren in Romans 8:29. And Jesus is the only one whom the Bible teaches us that Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED and gave a name about every other name to be made a King of kings and a Lord of lords.
Please read ALL the related studies that I have listed in the side menu related to this subject on whether or not Jesus preexisted. Now the REASON that some Christians so desperately TRY to prove that Jesus preexisted is because that have been wrongly taught that Jesus must without fail BE the ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF in the flesh or it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to have saved us UNLESS he was God himself in the flesh.
And by believing this wrong teaching all kinds of false teaching have cropped up ranging from Jesus being Yahweh himself, as in, Jesus is ONE and the self SAME being as Yahweh the FATHER to Jesus being God the Son the second person of a trinity God to Jesus being a separate divines spirit being named the Word who was WITH Yahweh at his SIDE, who God used the create all things. All these man-made THEORIES were created by man to TRY and resolve what THEY see as a CONTRADICTION in God's word, which is that in the OLD Testament is it made perfectly clear that there is only ONE God, therefore there CANNOT be TWO Gods, but in NEW Testament Jesus is called GOD.
So then, in there line of thinking the only way that THEY can see for there NOT to be a CONTRADICTION in God's word is to have Jesus BE Yahweh HIMSELF. So they came up with all these doctrines of men dogmatically demanding that there is NO OTHER WAY to solve this problem and thus WE have the ONLY TRUTH.
But with someone with a real sharp mind like yourself you realized that they ALL cannot possible have the TRUTH so you set out to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of God on this matter and boldly I say unto you that it was the Holy Spirit who has led you here at AMatterOfTruth.com giving ALL the Glory to our creator. I do not say this to bring any glory to myself. I say this because you would not he here or ANY where else if it was not God who was leading you. This is what I say that you would not be hear reading this study in God word if it was not God who led you here.
Now when I was QUESTION what I had been taught there was no Internet and the only books I could find were either written by Oneness believers or Triniatrian believers or by those Christians that these two main stream church denominations say are cults. Well I knew full well that the Oneness Christians were in error saying that Jesus IS the FATHER and I was questioning the ETERNAL preexistence of Jesus NEVER having a BEGINNING.
I mean that it never made any sense to ME as to HOW Jesus is called the SON OF God and yet never have a BEGINNING. Mere common sense teaches us the a Son is BORN, which is WHEN that Son came into existence. But this simple logic of Jesus having a BEGINNING is mocked by those who dogmatically demand that Jesus IS Yahweh himself having TWO natures at the SAME time during the days of his flesh.
It was when I read in a writing from the early church against the heresy of Jesus having a beginning. The controversy was one side saying that Jesus being BEGOTTEN demands that Jesus HAD a BEGINNING. Finally they other side after becoming frustrated argue that Jesus was begotten WITHOUT being begotten. It was right then that I saw that those who teach that Jesus did NOT have a BEGINNING have NO SOUND BIBLICAL proof or they would have present it.
So I followed the leading of the Holy Spirit to see if the verses being used to TRY and prove that Jesus did NOT have a BEGINNING were being taken OUT of CONTEXT. And the studies I have written are the result of obeying the leading of the Holy Spirit to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of God.
Now there are MANY, MANY verses that the Holy Spirit gave to me, but two stand out which to ME prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that it was impossible for Jesus to preexist as a SEPARATE divine ETERNAL Spirit being who was WITH Yahweh AT his SIDE either with a beginning or without a beginning. And these two verses are 1 Timothy 6:14-16, which clearly teaches us that there was ONLY ONE who has always possessed IMMORTALITY who is clearly IDENTIFIED and being the INVISIBLE Eternal Spirit that the Bible itself ALWAYS identifies as being the FATHER who Jesus came to SHOW, and John 5:26,27, which teaches us that Yahweh the Father GAVE his Son TO HAVE life in himself EVEN AS the Father HAS life in himself.
I cover these verses and many other verses in the many studies I have written on the subject. I have given the links to some of those studies in this above study or you may search the menu list of all the studies I have written on this and other subjects taught in God's word of truth, the Holy Bible.
Thanks for reading and may God bless you richly as you continue to seek the truth of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Below is a list of the studies I mentioned within this study along with all the other studies that I have related to this subject of HOW did Jesus PREEXIST. We all agree that Jesus preexisted is some form so the question is not IF Jesus preexisted, but rather in what form as to HOW Jesus preexisted in eternity past.
Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
RETURN TO HOMEPAGE
VERSES USED TO TEACH THAT JESUS PREEXISTED!
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
“And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
“He that comes from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he that comes from heaven is above all.”
“Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven”
“ For the bread of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world.”
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”
“And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”
“ This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.”
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
“This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.”
“What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”
“Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”
“And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.”
“I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.”
“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
“I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”
“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”
“For I have given unto them the words which you gave me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.”
JOHN 17:24 (scroll down to the second verse in question in this study)
“Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
ROMANS 8:3 (scroll down to the eleventh verse in question in this study)
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”
1 CORINTHIANS 10:4 (scroll down to the first verse in question in this study)
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:47 (scroll down to VERSE #6.)
“The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”
2 CORINTHIANS 8:9 (scroll down to VERSE #2.)
“For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.”
“But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11. According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:”
EPHESIANS 4:8-10 (scroll down to the fifth verse in question in this study)
“Wherefore he said, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)”
COLOSSIANS 1:15-17 (scroll down to the third verse in question in this study)
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
“Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”
“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;”
HEBREWS 10:5 (scroll down to VERSE #1.)
“Wherefore when he comes into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:”
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”
1 John 1:1,2
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)”
“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”
“But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
PROVERBS 8:22 (scroll down to the second verse in question in this study)
“The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.”
Thanks for reading. May God bless you richly as you continue seeking the truth of the whole word of God. Also please read the studies listed below related to Jesus being God, the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Jesus.
Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
RETURN TO HOMEPAGE
Verses used to try and support the doctrine of the trinity, and that Jesus is Yahweh himself, as in one and the self same being.
Thanks for reading and may God bless you richly as you continue to seek the truth of the WHOLE word o f God.
Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ.
RETURN TO HOMEPAGE