DOES 1 CORINTHIANS 10:4
PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?
Some Christians dogmatically teach that without fail Jesus PREEXISTED as the second person of the trinity or as the Son of Almighty God the Father. Others like the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus PREEXISTED as an ANGEL, namely Michael the archangel, who then became the Son of MAN and the Son of Almighty God the Father. And yet others like the Mormons teach that Jesus PREEXISTED as a SPIRIT being along side or WITH Almighty God as the WORD.
But what does the WHOLE word of God teach us?
Let us begin this study in God's word by reading the
FIRST verse in QUESTION:
1 Corinthians 10:4.
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”
First of all the Rock did NOT FOLLOW them. The word "THEM" is not in the original text. And the word translated as "FOLLOWED" LITERALLY means to learn as a disciple or follower of a teacher. So what the original text is saying is that they LEARNED from DRINKING of that SPIRITUAL rock. In other words, they literally drank literal water from a literal rock to quench their literal thirst and the spiritual lesson they learned is that God did not deliver them from bondage of Egypt to die.
Now some Christians interpret this verse to dogmatically demand without fail means that Jesus PREEXISTED in the Old Testament, because Paul clearly identifies the rock that Moses smote or hit with a stick in the wilderness was CHRIST. And then they say that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, because they take other Old Testament verses which clearly and plainly teach us that Almighty God Yahweh himself is the ROCK and then they conclude that since Paul says Jesus is the rock and these other verses say that Almighty God is the rock, then therefore Jesus must without fail be THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF.
But again is this SOUND BIBLICAL teaching based upon the WHOLE word of Almighty God?
As I have said may times that any verse when taken out of context and viewed alone and apart from the whole word of God may SEEM to be saying something that it is not truly saying.
So then, let us read this verse in question being left in the context of where it is found.
Please read 1 Corinthians 10:1-11.
“Moreover, brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses (some Bible scholars teach that Moses was a type or figure of Jesus Christ and that we as Christians are baptized in Jesus as the people of Israel were baptized unto Moses) in the cloud and in the sea;
4. And did all drink the same SPIRITUAL drink: for they drank of that SPIRITUAL Rock (Paul is teaching us a SPIRITUAL lesson from these things written in the Old Testament) that followed them: and that Rock was CHRIST (One mean of the word "CHRIST" is the ANOINTING of Almighty God or more specifically the ETERNAL Holy Spirit who DWELT IN Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God the Father. Whenever you read the word “CHRIST” do not automatically substitute the name Jesus for the word “CHRIST”, because the word Christ is not Jesus' last name. But rather this word means that Jesus is the chosen one whom Almighty God the Father DWELT IN to empower his Son to do the works that he sent his Son to do. Please read the study “JESUS THE CHRIST” for a deeper understanding of what I mean by this. Another meaning for the word "CHRIST" is MESSIAH, the deliverer or the savior and certainly THAT ROCK in the Old Testament was used by Almighty God the SAVE the people of Israel from physical death. So again Paul is teaching us a SPIRITUAL lesson or using an ANALOGY and is not actually saying that Jesus is a LITERALLY ROCK.).
9. Neither let us tempt CHRIST (the ANOINTING or more precisely, the ETERNAL SPIRIT, who DWELT IN Jesus the SON OF Almighty God and Father and NOW DWELLS IN US. You see the truth of the matter is that Almighty God the eternal Holy Spirit himself was that one who stood before Moses on the rock that he instructed Moses to strike with the rod of Aaron. Please read Exodus 17:5,6 " And the LORD (Yahweh or Almighty God the Father himself) said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with you of the elders of Israel; and your rod, wherewith you smote the river, take in your hand, and go. 6. Behold, I (Yahweh) will stand before you there upon the rock in Horeb; and you shall smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel." The SPIRITUAL lesson that Paul is teaching us hear is that JUST as the PHYSICAL ROCK was SMOTE and gave God's people WATER to give them physical LIFE to keep them from dying PHYSICALLY so was JESUS BROKEN to give US LIVING water unto ETERNAL life. Also what Paul is teaching us hear it for us NOT to tempt the Holy Spirit, the CHRIST, or the ANOINTING within us.), as some of them also tempted (Almighty God the eternal and invisible Spirit that went before them as a pillar of cloud by day and went behind them or followed them as a pillar of fire by night. In other words, the CHRIST of or the ANOINTING OF Almighty God did not DWELL IN the people of Israel as he now DWELLS IN us as believers in his Son Jesus, but rather the Holy Spirit was only with them in the wilderness. But they tempted God saying, "Is the Lord with us or not?), and were destroyed of serpents.
So then, from the CONTEXT we clearly see that the literal physical rock in the Old Testament was a SPIRITUAL lesson TEACHING us of the coming the CHRIST, the coming of the ANOINTED ONE of Almighty God to be our Messiah, our savior, the atonement for our sins, our redeemer to be BROKEN in order to cleanse so that we could be given the LIVING WATER of the Holy Spirit to DWELL IN US as believers. But Paul was not just comparing that physical rock only as an EXAMPLE written for US, but ALL these things HAPPENED unto God's people FOR OUR EXAMPLE and OUR admonition.
In other words, Paul is NOT saying that Jesus himself PREEXISTED as that physical rock any more than Jesus preexisted as a literal physical LAMB that was literally ALREADY slain from before the foundation of the world in the MIND and PLAN of God, BEFORE any lambs were ever created, because Jesus was NOT a LITERAL LAMB. NO! A thousand times NO! These things were written for our EXAMPLE. These verses that SEEM to be teaching that Jesus preexisted in some form are TYPES, SHADOWS, and FIGURES or PROPHESIES foretelling of the coming of Jesus to be the Messiah or the savior, whom Almighty God himself would raise up from AMONG the PEOPLE.
To say this another way Jesus preexisted in PROPHECY, as the the LOGOS of God, the SAYING of God, the SPOKEN word of God written down by men of old foretelling us of his coming into existence where he never existed before EXPECT WITHIN the God as God's desire to BE or bring forth into existence. These things HAPPENED and were WRITTEN for our example and for our admonition or WARNING. Again to ME, the only way that Jesus preexisted was in the FORM of God's LOGOS, the SAYING of God or the SPOKEN WORD of God that was written down by men of old. These prophecies were WRITTEN in the word of God were speaking of the yet future COMING of Jesus as the CHRIST. Not one single prophecy in the Old Testament prophesies even remotely teach us of a preexisting Jesus, Son of God, coming down out of heaven as the SON of God to become the Son of MAN but yet remain to be fully God in the flesh.
Yes there are many verse in both the Old and New Testament that SEEM to be saying that Jesus preexisted, but I assure you that it is the WAY that these verse are INTERPRETED as to why they SEEM to be saying something that they are not truly saying if they were CORRECTLY interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God
So I implore you dear child of God to THINK these verses through for yourself. IF SO BE that Jesus PREEXISTED in some literal form whether his form be as the Son of Almighty God being a so called second person of the trinity, or whether it be that Jesus preexisted as an ANGEL or whether it be that Jesus preexisted some divine eternal SPIRIT being called the WORD who was WITH God being along side of God. But yet some teach at the same time this divine eternal Spirit called the Word whether it be an angel or God the Son IS Almighty God himself even though they dogmatically demand that he is a SEPARATE divine eternal being who was WITH Almighty God.
Now to me if so be that Jesus IS ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, then WHY does the word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible teach us in Luke 2:52 that Jesus INCREASED in FAVOR with BOTH Almighty God the Father and with man? I mean HOW can Jesus BE Almighty God HIMSELF and be WITH Almighty God? This has always puzzled me for those who teach the doctrine of the trinity who CORRECTLY teach that Jesus is NOT the Father, but then INCORRECTLY teach that Jesus IS Almighty God HIMSELF being fully God and fully man at the same time having TWO natures, one divine and one human. To ME these two doctrines, the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus CONTRADICT each other. The doctrine of the deity of Jesus teaches that Jesus IS Almighty God HIMSELF while the doctrine of the trinity teaches that Jesus is EQUAL to Almighty God the Father. So again to ME you cannot have it BOTH ways. Either Jesus IS Almighty God himself OR Jesus is EQUAL to Almighty God the Father.
Now IF SO BE that Jesus himself had always PREEXISTED with Almighty God or was Almighty God himself and REMAINED FULLY Almighty God in the FLESH when Almighty God himself became FLESH, then this would mean that Jesus would have ALREADY had or possessed ALL the favor he had always had preexisting with God from all eternity past. But yet the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and favor WITH GOD.
So again, IF SO BE that Jesus was fully Almighty God himself and fully a man at the same times having two natures, one divine and one human as those who teach the doctrine of the trinity dogmatically demand, then Jesus would never have said ONLY the Father knows that day and the hour of his return. There are just far too many CONTRADICTIONS with these man made doctrines of the trinity, the deity of Jesus and the doctrine of oneness that I myself find in God's clear, plain, and simple word that does not need any interpretation to know what they mean. Please read the study ""19 THINGS TO PONDER ABOUT JESUS BEING GOD!", which has expanded to over 35 points to ponder at my last revision.
Since this study in God's word is to examine the scriptures that are USED by those who teach that Jesus PREEXISTED to see if they TRULY teach us clearly in simplicity that Jesus preexisted in a LITERAL FORM as either a DIVINE ETERNAL Spirit being WITH Almighty God called the Word, or Jesus preexisted as an ANGEL, or Jesus preexisted as the SECOND person of the trinity called God the SON, then let us now take a CLOSER look at some other verses in QUESTION such as John 17:5 that are used to dogmatically demand without fail that Jesus preexisted from all eternity past and therefore concluded that Jesus had NO BEGINNING ever and thus they conclude that Jesus is CO ETERNAL with Almighty God the Father can be interpreted in other ways that do NOT contradict any other part of God's word.
SECOND verse in QUESTION:
“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”
Now again when one views this one verse ALONE and APART from the REST of God's word it does indeed SEEM to some Christians to be saying that Jesus PREEXISTED before the world was created with Almighty God as a SEPARATE BEING from Almighty God the Father who shared the GLORY that belonged to Almighty God himself. particularly when one is DOGMATICALLY TAUGHT that this can be the ONLY meaning of this verse for HOW ELSE could Jesus had glory with the Father BEFORE the world WAS if he did not PREEXIST?
You see dear child of God, when one hears ONLY ONE teaching and that teaching is DOGMATICALLY DEMANDED to be the ONLY possible meaning, then the hearer and the teacher as well develop what I call TUNNEL vision and THAT teaching which they have been TAUGHT is at times ALL they can see, because their FOCUS is on the FALSE ASSUMPTION that what they were taught is the ONLY possible meaning of that verse.
This is why we must interpret the unclear verses in the light of the clear, plain, and simple verses that do not need to be interpreted. And this is why we must keep the verses in question in their CONTEXT. And this is why we must COMPARE scriptures with scriptures to see if the INTERPRETATION we have concluded AGREES with the WHOLE word of God.
So then, if John 17:5 does NOT mean that Jesus PREEXISTED, then WHAT does it mean? What does the Bible ITSELF teach us what these words of Jesus truly mean.
When this verse and other verses as well are interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God, then it becomes clear that Jesus UNDERSTOOD the SCRIPTURES and that the scriptures spoke OF HIM being the one prophesied to come. In other words, Jesus understood of the glory that the SON OF God would be glorified with by the Father that was prophesied from the BEGINNING. Jesus understood that the scriptures spoke of HIM. So when he read Proverbs 8 Jesus saw the THOUGHTS and PLANS of Almighty God and how his SON REJOICED before him in the inhabitable part of the earth BEFORE the earth was ever created for mankind.
Please take a close look at Proverbs 8:22-31.
“The LORD (referring to YAHWEH the Lord God Almighty who is the FATHER alone) possessed (which means acquired, bought, purchased redeemed, brought forth into existence, formed, or created) ME (Jesus, the SON OF God) in the beginning of his way, (all these meanings of God ACQUIRING his SON teach us that Jesus not only had a BEGINNING but also that this passage of scripture is PROPHECY of yet a future fulfillment concerning Jesus and NOT teaching us of a literal PREEXISTING Jesus) before his WORKS of old. (The meaning of the word “WORKS” here LITERALLY means PRECEDING his CONTRIVANCES of old. And this word contrivance means that God had his Son in MIND preceding his CLEVERLY DEVISED ingenious PLAN, which was to have an INNOCENT MAN be SLAIN without cause so he could redeem or but back his NEW creation called the HUMAN that he has not yet created PRECEDING the foundation of the world. You see dear child of God creating a NEW species of being called the humans a little lower or inferior to his previous creation the ANGELS, where 1/3 of them rebelled against God under the leadership of Lucifer, now known as Satan or the Devil is PART of God's ingenious plan to prove that he created Lucifer perfect in all his ways and thus God will clear his own name for his own sake that was being defamed by the false accusation from Lucifer BLAMING God for his own prideful sin saying God created him evil and it was not his fault therefore God has no right to judge him. Please read the study “UNDERSTANDING WHY?” for the BIG picture and all the verses that answer many, many questions Christian have such as WHY doe God allow evil in the world? Please understand that this verse like all verses must be interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God and AGREE with the rest of God's word. If one interprets this verse alone and apart from the rest of God's word it may SEEM that Jesus was brought forth BEFORE the foundation of the world and was LITERALLY by the side of God as a SECOND person or being as God's Son. However in the light of the WHOLE word of God which you will see that the correct meaning of this verse is that Jesus is God FIRST DESIRE WITHIN himself to have a SON BEFORE God begins creating or preparing a PLACE FOR his Son, which is the world. You see dear child of God, it is like proud EXPECTING parents awaiting their unborn child who are PREPARING a room for their YET COMING child.)
23. I was set up (this word has several meanings which are #1 God INAUGURATE his Son or APPOINTED his Son to be a King of kings) from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. (Also this word translated as set up in the King James version also carries the meaning of being POURED OUT as a drink offering is poured out. So when we take this meaning and compare it to the scripture that teaches us that Jesus is the LAMB that was SLAIN from BEFORE the foundation of the world we can see that Proverbs 8:22-31 is a PROPHECY about a YET FUTURE fulfillment from the time it was SPOKEN by God and then written down by men of old. We all KNOW that Jesus was NOT LITERALLY SLAIN BEFORE the foundation of the world, and in the same way Jesus did NOT LITERALLY PREEXIST by the side of God BEFORE the foundation of the world. But rather the SON OF God dwelt in God's MIND or WITHIN God before the foundation of the world and it was AS IF his Son was BY his side where God had WITHIN him an IMAGE of his yet FUTURE Son before the foundation of the world So please humor me and read these verse seeing God as a proud parent EXPECTING his yet UNBORN child and God is preparing a place, the world, FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet future unborn SON who is yet to be brought into existence)
24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; (The LITERAL meaning of this word “brought forth” means TRAVAILED as a women in labor pains about to BIRTH a yet unborn child. This word also means to WAIT PATIENTLY or to look for teaching us again that Jesus, the SON OF God was still yet WITHING the God who was anxiously AWAITING his Son to be brought forth or born of the Virgin Mary and then to be the FIRST BORN from the dead to forever be God's Son by his side LITERALLY. So all these words teach us that Jesus was BEING brought forth in the MIND of God as part of God's CONTRIVANCE to prove to Lucifer, the fallen angels and to the good angels that ALL that God creates is PERFECT and he has every right to judge Lucifer and the fallen angels. And all this is taking place in God's MIND BEFORE the recreation of the earth that was destroyed or made waste in the WAR between God and the fallen angels who were trying to take over God's throne. Again please read the study “UNDERSTANDING WHY?” for all the verses that show what I am saying about this war or rebellion of Lucifer and the fallen angels. But for now please understand that God was TRAVAILING or if you will PREGNANT with his yet unborn SON) when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: (same as above, which means that Jesus was yet in the womb of God's MIND and deep DESIRE WITHING himself BEING brought forth into existence. Remember Exodus 3:14 where God says “I AM THAT I AM”, which LITERALLY means “I SHALL BECOME WHO or WHAT I AM BECOMING”)
26. While as yet HE (Almighty God) had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. (Now those who teach the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus also teach that Jesus HIMSELF created ALL things, but ALL the verses in the OLD Testament CLEARLY and PLAINLY in SIMPLICITY teach us that Almighty God himself ALONE and by HIMSELF created ALL things. Please read the study “EPHESIANS 3:9-11---DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?” for a sound Biblical teaching letting the Bible speak for ITSELF clearly showing that Almighty God HIMSELF created ALL things FOR or FOR the SAKE of his SON Jesus, just like Proverbs 8:22-31 is teaching us.)
27. When HE (Almighty God himself) prepared the heavens, I was there (Meaning the Jesus was there in his THOUGHTS and DESIRES WITHING himself as if I was literally by his side while HE was PREPARING a place for ME): when HE set a compass upon the face of the depth: (the LITERAL meaning of God setting a COMPASS upon the face of the deep is INTO DELINEATE OF HIM, which means that God is drawing out, sketching out, making a blueprint, designing WITHIN himself in his THOUGHTS and IMAGINING how he will prepare this place for his yet unborn SON. This word DELINEATE also means to PICTURE is WORDS or to PORTRAY in WORDS. In other words, God was PICTURING in his MIND within himself FORMING words WITHIN himself to portray the IMAGE that was WITHIN himself to bring it forth into existence and Jesus his yet unborn Son was the CENTER of this IMAGE that God had withing himself. God was designing a PORTRAIT of the IMAGE within himself to CREATE.)
28: When HE established the clouds above: when HE strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29. When HE gave to the sea HIS decree, that the waters should not pass HIS commandment: when HE appointed (DESIGNED or delineate in himself ) the foundations of the earth:
30. Then I was by him, AS ONE one brought up WITH him (Now these last two verse clearly teach us that this passage of scripture is a PROPHECY of the future fulfillment of God's SON being brought forth into existence and that it was AS IF Jesus was by his side WHILE God was PREPARING the world FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet unborn Son. Please notice in the next verse that Jesus was REJOICING IN the habitable part of the EARTH that had NOT YET been created as yet, but was still yet in the MIND and PLAN of God WITHIN himself yet to be brought forth into existence): and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31. Rejoicing IN the HABITABLE part of his EARTH; and my delights were with the sons of men.”
Let us take an even CLOSER look at the LITERAL meanings of some of these words in these last two verses. The LITERAL translation of Proverbs 8:30, 31 says:
“And I was beside him FOSTER CHILD and I was delectation day day one GAMBOLING to faces of him all of time.
31. One GAMBOLING inhabiting of earth of him and delectation of me the sons of humans.”
So then, ALL OF THE TIME WHILE God was PREPARING the world for his yet unborn SON Jesus, God was PORTRAYING or painting a portrait in his MIND PICTURING his yet future unborn SON GAMBOLING in the EARTH that God is yet PREPARING FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his yet unborn FOSTER child DELIGHTING over his yet coming into being unborn SON.
Let us consider the meanings of these words so we can see that PICTURE or portrait that God was painting in is MIND forming the IMAGE of what he DESIRED to BE brought into existence.
First of all the word beside has another meaning other than being BY the side of God. When we consider the abundant GREAT JOY and delight that was WITHIN God picturing his Son to BE the word beside can take on the meaning of being beside oneself, which means out of one's MIND with EXCITEMENT or anticipation having extreme agitation. Now this meaning agrees with verse 24 of Jesus being brought forth as in God was TRAVAILING or birthing his Son WITHIN himself. This word "travailing" also has the meaning of being extremely agitated with excitement, shaking or vibrating with excitement.
Next when see Jesus being a FOSTER child. The word "FOSTER" means to raise up a child that is NOT OF your own blood and in this case a child that is NOT own God's OWN DIVINE NATURE. You see dear child of God, when Almighty God himself brought his Son into existence God stripped himself of ALL his DIVINE nature to take on HUMAN NATURE. Please read the study “WHAT DOES GOD INCARNATE MEAN?” for what the BIBLE ITSELF teaches and NOT what the main stream churches teach. For now know that Jesus did not take on the divine nature of Almighty God Father by becoming IMMORTAL, until AFTER his death and resurrection, when his God and Father GAVE his SON Jesus immortality or eternal life, the same LIFE that the Father has always possessed in himself. Please read John 5:26,27.
" For AS the Father HAS life IN himself; so has he GIVEN to the Son to have life in himself;
27. And has GIVEN him authority to execute judgment also, BECAUSE he is the Son of MAN."
NOT because Jesus IS Almighty God HIMSELF. And NOT because Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God. But rather BECAUSE Jesus was the Son of MAN.
Let us get back on topic of closely examining Proverbs 8:22-31. Then we see God delighting over his Son. The root word from where this Hebrew word translated as "DELIGHTING" in the original text means to DANDLE, which means to bounce up and down on ones knee, or to bounce in one's cradled arms that brought so much JOY to God picturing his yet coming Son WITHIN himself.
This excitement within God I can envision that he had for his yet unborn FOSTER son. Jesus says that God loves us because we have loved him and I have FELT the loving arms of God's presence giving me a big hug that overwhelmed me so much that I began to cry out loud trembling with joy, praise and love for God. It was during a church service and I was worshiping God with my whole being and I did not want the worship service to stop. And when the singing and praise stopped we all sat down and WITHIN myself I kept on worshiping God enjoying his presence and that is when his presence INCREASED BEYOND what I had ever felt before and I could literally feel his arms around me squeezing me giving me a HUG showing HIS excitement of my worship to him.Please read the study “ALMIGHTY GOD LOVES YOU SO MUCH!”
Then we see Jesus GAMBOLING, which mean dancing around skipping and playing in the EARTH that God has NOT YET prepared FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his Son Jesus, which clearly and plainly teaches us that Jesus did NOT LITERALLY PREEXIST by his God and Father SIDE as a separate divine eternal Spirit being called God the SON who is CLAIMED to be the one who created ALL things by those who teach the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of oneness and by the Jehovah's Witnesses as well.
But in TRUTH we clearly see right here in this passage of scripture that the DESIGNER, Architect, builder and CREATOR of all things is Almighty God himself HAVING his SON in his MIND doing all of this FOR or For the SAKE OF his SON Jesus.
So then, one can readily see from this passage of scripture that Jesus himself is saying that Almighty God the Father was behind all that was created and that he, God's Son was there with his Father BEFORE the FOUNDATIONS of the EARTH as God's DELIGHT WITHIN God PICTURING this IMAGE of his SON rejoicing before Almighty God IN the inhabitable part of the EARTH that had NOT YET been CREATED.
So clearly to ME, Jesus as God's SON was with God at this time before the foundation of the world ONLY in God's THOUGHTS, because HOW could Jesus rejoice before his God and Father IN the inhabitable part of the EARTH when the earth had NOT yet been created as yet EXCEPT in the MIND and the PLAN of ALMIGHTY God.
So you see dear child of God, when Jesus said glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began to me Jesus was praying to his God and Father, I am getting ready to go through a time very shortly Father that when I take on the sins of the world you are going to turn your back on me, so I pray that you return me to the glorious delight that you had for me before the world began and before I was ever BORN. I myself believe that Jeremiah 1:5 is a PROPHECY of Jesus.
"Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations."
Not just to the nation of Israel but the the NATIONS. You see, Jesus knew the scriptures spoke of him. Jesus knew that he was the chosen one sent by Almighty God to become that sacrifice for mankind because the Spirit of God taught him morning by morning from the scriptures. Jesus saw the END from the Scriptures, but he still had to BELIEVE. And because of the joy that was set before Jesus he endured the cross for us knowing that his God and Father is FAITHFUL to perform his spoken word. So then, because Jesus became obedient even unto death on the cross Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED his Son and GAVE him a name that is above every name. This brings us to the third verse in question where some INTERPRET that Jesus MUST have preexisted as a second person of the trinity.
Also John 17:5 in the LITERAL Greek can be translated in a number of ways. First let us read this verse again from the King James version.
“And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I HAD with you BEFORE the world WAS.”
Please notice that I have emphasized three words. The word that is translated as "I HAD" is the Greek word "ECHO" Strong's # 2192, which means to hold, to keep, or to be as a possession or as a condition. In other words, in the light of the rest of Gods's word Jesus is asking his God and Father to glorify him with the glory which God has promised and is holding in store for him. Thayer's Greek to English Lexicon defines this word to mean to have in store. Hebrews 12:1-4 teaches us that Almighty God set something that brought JOY in view before his Son Jesus which gave his SON strength to ENDURE the suffering of the cross.
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR (or BECAUSE OF) the JOY that was SET BEFORE him ENDURED the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest you be wearied and faint in your minds.
4. You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.”
Now we as Christians have a PRIZE that is set before us to strengthen us to ENDURE unto the end that is RESERVED in heaven for us, so why is it so hard to see that Jesus was simply praying and asking God to glorify his Son with the glory that was being RESERVED in heaven for him.
The word that is translated as "BEFORE" can also mean previous and the word that is translated as "WAS" also means "TO BE". Now some Bible scholars interpret John 17:5 to mean that Jesus was asking to be glorified with the glory which Almighty God the Father was HOLDING IN STORE for to enjoy prior to the world to come. This interpretation does agree with the truth of the whole word of God which teaches us that Jesus is in heaven NOW in his glorified state sitting at the right hand of his Father on his Father's throne.
The THIRD verse in QUESTION:
“For BY HIM (SPEAKING of Jesus, the SON OF GOD) were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, and FOR HIM:
17. And HE is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.”
Now Christians who teach that God is a trinity and that Jesus is God the Son the second person of the trinity being co equal with God and co eternal with God will say that these verses in Colossians chapter 1 are the CLEAR, PLAIN, and SIMPLE word of God that needs NO interpretation whatsoever to know what is means, because it PLAINLY STATES that BY HIM which we KNOW from the CONTEXT is speaking of Jesus, the Son of Almighty God has CREATED ALL things AND that he is BEFORE ALL THINGS. Therefore this verse PROVES beyond any shadow of a doubt the Jesus not ONLY PREEXISTED, but ALSO CREATED ALL THINGS.
Consequently due to the dogmatic nature that these verses have been taught to some Christians FORCING this trinitarian meaning on these verses there are many Christians who know without a doubt that the doubt that the doctrine of the trinity is NOT a SOUND Biblical teaching, but yet still STRUGGLE with these two verses.
As I have said many times that ANY verse when read OUT of CONTEXT and viewed ALONE apart from the REST of God word may SEEM to be saying or MADE to say something that it is NOT TRULY saying in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God.
Now this is especially true when reading one of the most BIAS trinitarian translations that there is, the King James Version of the bible. Now please understand that I myself PREFER the King James Translation above any other translation there is that I know about. However in SOME places I must say that not only the Kings James Version but ALL TRANSLATIONS of the Bible have ERRORS here and there and can be MISLEADING, when verses are interpreted APART from the rest of God's word, and NOT KEPT in the CONTEXT of where it is found.
So then, FIRST let us read the entire CONTEXT to see what this verse is TRULY teaching us in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.
Please read Colossians 1:1-29.
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2. To the saints and faithful brethren IN Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (Two things in this verse were learn is that in order to be saved or be a true born again Christian on must be IN Jesus Christ. The second thing we learn is that there are TWO SEPARATE persons being spoken of not only in this passage of scripture by the entire New Testament and much of the Old Testament as well. So then Jesus is NOT one and the self SAME being as Almighty God the Father HIMSELF.)
3. We give thanks to God AND the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, (In this verse we learn that Almighty God is not only the FATHER OF Jesus but ALSO the GOD OF Jesus as well. So again Jesus is NOT ONE and the SELF SAME BEING as Almighty God the Father.)
4. Since we heard of your faith IN Christ Jesus, and of the love which you have to all the saints,
5. For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven (speaking of the promise of eternal life in the world to come that abides in all believers IN Jesus Christ), whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6. Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and brings forth fruit, as it does also in you, since the day you heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7. As you also learned of Epaphras our dear fellow servant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8. Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9. For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that you might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10. That you might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11. Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and long suffering with joyfulness;
12. Giving thanks unto the FATHER, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. WHO (speaking of Almighty God the FATHER has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. IN WHOM (speaking of being IN Jesus Christ the SON OF God) we have redemption THROUGH HIS blood (speaking of the shed blood of Jesus the LAMB slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world PROVIDED for us BY Almighty God the Father as HIS salvation for mankind so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN this SON Jesus might be saved), even the forgiveness of sins:
15. WHO (speaking of Jesus, the SON OF God) is the IMAGE of the invisible God (the word “IMAGE” does indeed mean after God's likeness, as in, God CHARACTER. But the word “IMAGE” also means the PICTURE that was WITHIN God before the world was, which God imagined and desired to BECOME into existence.), the FIRSTBORN of EVERY CREATURE: (This is speaking of God's NEW CREATION and Jesus his SON being the FIRSTBORN form the DEAD and the the FIRST HUMAN BEING to receive ETERNAL LIFE. This is what Revelation 3: means as well saying that Jesus is the BEGINNING of the CREATION of God. NOT the creation of the WORLD, but rather God's NEW CREATION who will INHERIT the world yet to come along with Jesus.)
16. For BY HIM (which should have been translated “For IN him” as the LITERAL translation correctly translates it) were all things created (or CORRECTLY translated in the LITERAL translation IS created the ALL. And when you read the CONTEXT in the LITERAL the ALL is speaking of BELIEVERS IN the SON OF Almighty God the Father), that are in heaven (speaking of the dead IN Jesus Christ who are up in heaven under the altar of God waiting their change to be clothed with immortal body like Jesus has now), and that are in earth (speaking of believers ON the earth), visible and invisible (speaking of those ON the earth who can be SEEN and those dead in Jesus Christ up in heaven who are not SEEN by us on earth. This phrase visible and invisible also means the power, authority and dominion we have as believers IN Jesus Christ both IN this PRESENT SEEN world and the UNSEEN world to come, which is what the following ALL that Jesus provided for us), whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers (meaning the places of power, authority to sit on thrones to rule and reign with Jesus in the world to come): all things were created by him, and for him:(this last phrase is correctly translated in the LITERAL which says, “the ALL THROUGH (or BECAUSE of) him and INTO him has been created.”)
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (The LITERAL translation of this verse says “And he is before ALL and the ALL IN him has together stood.” meaning we are ALL joint heirs WITH Jesus of the world to come. The word “BEFORE” means that Jesus is ABOVE the ALL meaning that Jesus has been HIGHLY EXALTED to the second highest position of authority and power next to Almighty God HIMSELF.)
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the BEGINNING (meaning the beginning of this NEW CREATION of God BEING), the FIRSTBORN from the dead; (never more to die meaning that Jesus is the FIRST human being to be GIVEN IMMORTALITY by his God and Father the ALMIGHTY) that (or so that) in all things he might have the preeminence. (meaning that his God and Father HIGHLY EXALTED his SON Jesus for his OBEDIENCE to do all the will of his God and Father even to suffer and die on the cross for the sins of the world. Please read Philippians 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9. Wherefore (or for this very REASON of Jesus OBEYING his God and Father) God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO the glory of God the Father.”)
19. For it pleased the Father that IN him should all fullness dwell; (then in the next chapter Colossians 2:9 we see that this FULLNESS that DWELT IN Jesus was the GODHEAD, Almighty God the Father HIMSELF, the ETERNAL Holy Spirit who empower Jesus to over come sin and do the mighty works men saw Jesus do.)
20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him (referring to Almighty God the Father who THROUGH his SON Jesus made peace through the shed blood of his SON on the cross. The LAMB slain from before the foundation of the world was the PLAN of Almighty God the Father to reconcile mankind back to himself) to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
22. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23. If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25. Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
26. Even the mystery (the PLAN of God, which he kept SECRET from the foundation of the world and had the principalities and powers of this present world had KNOWN God's plan they would never have crucifies the Lord of glory sealing their own fate. It was God's PLAN all along to save all of mankind THROUGH the shed blood of his SON Jesus) which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you (meaning the SAME eternal Holy Spirit who DWELT IN Jesus now DWELLS in US as believers IN the SON OF the living God who died for our sin and who God raised from the dead and gave his Son eternal life and the promise to give us eternal life in the world to come being IN Jesus Christ), the hope of glory:
28. Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29. Where unto I also labor, striving according to his working, which works in me mightily.”
So you see dear child of God, when one reads this passage of scripture being KEPT in it's CONTEXT then you can clearly see that Jesus did NOT create all THINGS, as in, all the worlds and everything that was created and therefore MUST have PREEXISTED as some dogmatically demand. But rather IN Jesus ALL are made to become a NEW CREATION IN Jesus Christ to become JOINTS HEIRS WITH Jesus of the NEW Heavens and the NEW Earth yet to come after the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
Now let us compare scripture with scripture to see WHY it is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION with the word of Almighty God to teach that Jesus PREEXISTED as a SEPARATE divine eternal Spirit being WITH Almighty God from all eternity past WITHOUT ever having a BEGINNING. And then we will take a closer look at a few more verses that are used to try and teach that Jesus preexisted as God the SON with or along side Almighty God the Father.
First of all we know that Jesus is NOT Almighty God the FATHER and the Almighty God the Father is THE God over his Son Jesus. Now I am only going to give you two scriptures in this study so if you want ALL the verses that clearly teach us that Jesus is NOT the Father and that Almighty God the Father is BOTH God AND Father of Jesus, then please read the study “WHO IS JESUS?” and “IS JESUS ALMIGHTY GOD?”.
But for now please read Ephesians 1:3, which says,
“Blessed be THE God AND Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, WHO has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places IN Christ:”
This agrees with what we just learned in Colossians 1 where it was the PLAN of Almighty God for mankind to be saved or redeemed THROUGH, BY, by the means of or IN his son Jesus the CHRIST before the foundation of the world. This is why Jesus said to the Jews who put so much faith in Abraham to save them the he was BEFORE Abraham, but the Jews did not understand the words of Jesus and THOUGHT Jesus was saying that he was BORN before Abraham. And some Christians INTERPRET these words of Jesus to mean that Jesus PREEXISTED BEFORE Abraham. I cover this verse in the study “JOHN 5:58---BEFORE ABRAHAM I AM!” if you are truly seeking a sound Biblical understanding on what this verse truly means in the light of the whole word of God.
But for now please read Revelation 3:12 where Jesus himself clearly identifies Almighty God the Father as being HIS God over his SON Jesus.
“Him that over comes will I make a pillar in the temple of MY God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY God, and the name of the city of MY God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
Now this was AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus where Jesus himself plainly states FOUR times in just one verse that THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God the FATHER is HIS God. Therefore the BIBLE ITSELF does NOT teach us the Jesus IS the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, because the very word ALMIGHTY means ABOVE ALL others and there can be only ONE God who is the ALMIGHTY God.
This brings me to my second point to clearly show my readers and seekers of the truth that it is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the clear, plain, and simple word of God to INTERPRET verses to mean that Jesus PREEXISTED as a SEPARATE person or divine eternal Spirit being who was WITH or along side of Almighty God in the BEGINNING BEFORE the foundation of the world.
Please read 1 Corinthians 1:8 to learn what the BIBLE ITSELF teaches is as to WHO the ONE God is to US as Christians.
“But to US (believers IN Jesus) there is but ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
So this verse clearly IDENTIFIES the ONE God as being the FATHER ALONE and Jesus as being our ONE Lord. Now this last phrase “BY WHOM are all things, and we BY him.” LITERALLY means “OUT of whom THE ALL and WE INTO him, and one Lord Jesus ANOINTED, THROUGH whom THE ALL, and WE THROUGH him”. In other words, this AGREES with what we learned in Colossians about God's NEW creation speaking of his SON Jesus being the BEGINNING of this NEW CREATION and WE as believers IN Jesus the SON OF the living God have been born of God THROUGH, BY, or our faith IN Jesus the SON OF God. So the CONTEXT of this verse is NOT speaking of all THINGS, but rather THE ALL referring to the HUMANS or mankind who came OUT from Almighty God the Father and those of mankind who BELIEVE IN Jesus are THE ALL speaking of the NEW creation being a NEW creature IN or THROUGH our Lord Jesus ANOINTED.
While we are on the subject of the Bible ITSELF teaching us that there is but ONE God let us look at a few more verses that teach us this truth. Malachi 2:10 tells us that we have but ONE God and Father who CREATED us.
Jesus HIMSELF teaches us that there is but ONE Lord our God in Mark 12:29-34.
“And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, you have said the TRUTH: for there is ONE God; and there is none other but HE: (Now IF SO BE that Jesus PREEXISTED with or along side of Almighty God, then you would THING that Jesus would have CORRECTED this scribe proclaim the TRUTH that there is bu ONE God and there is NO OTHER than HIM alone. Bit rather Jesus commended this scribe for saying the TRUTH in verse 34.)
33. And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly,(the word “discreet does mean quietly without drawing attention to oneself, but it also means to DISCERN, grasp or apprehend, to UNDERSTAND. So Jesus did indeed perceive that this scribe DISCERN or UNDERSTOOD the TRUTH that there is but ONE God who the Bible ITSELF clearly IDENTIFIES as being the FATHER and we KNOW that Jesus is NOT one and the self same being as the FATHER.) he said unto him, You are not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.”
The Bible ITSELF always identifies the FATHER as being the ONE God and Jesus the SON OF Almighty God the father as being our ONE LORD. Please read Ephesians 4:3-6.
“ Endeavoring to keep the UNITY of the Spirit (speaking of the UNITY or teaching the SAME things of God who IS SPIRIT) in the bond of peace.
4. There is one body, and ONE Spirit (speaking of the ONE ETERNAL Holy Spirit who IS the ONE God), even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord (speaking of Jesus the SON OF the ONE God), one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of ALL, who is ABOVE ALL (including being ABOVE or over his SON Jesus), and through all, and in you all.”
Again most all Christians KNOW from the word of God that Jesus is NOT the Father, but there are some Christians who do indeed teach that Jesus IS the Father and the Father IS his Son Jesus, as in, Jesus is a MANIFESTATION of the ONE God. These Christians call themselves ONENESS believers and sometimes refer to their teaching of God being ONE as MODALISM where Jesus is a MODE of the Father manifesting himself as the Son.
Well to most Christians this theology of Jesus being the Father CONTRADICTS clear passages of scriptures like 1 Timothy 2:3-6, which says,
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior (meaning that it is the PLAN and desire of the ONE TRUE and only ALMIGHTY God to redeem mankind back to himself THROUGH, by or by means of HIS LAMB slain from before the foundation of the world. In other words, this verse is NOT teaching us that Jesus IS Almighty God HIMSELF and the FATHER of ALL);
4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the TRUTH (that Almighty God has a SON who laid down his life to suffering and die on the cross for the sins of the whole world, which was his God and Father's WILL for his SON to do, who then HIGHLY EXALTED his SON Jesus to BECOME a God to sit on his throne at his Father's side to rule and reign for a 1000 years).
5. For (or THAT. In other words, the TRUTH is THAT) there is ONE God, and one mediator BETWEEN God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus (or the ANOINTED MAN Jesus who is the ONE mediator BETWEEN Almighty God the Father and mankind);
6. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
Now let us see HOW Jesus was ABLE to offer himself up as a SPOTLESS or sinless MAN to his God and Father the be the redemption PRICE that God himself paid to but back mankind to himself. Please read Hebrews 9:14,15 where we see that Jesus was EMPOWERED by the ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT who DWELT IN him to live without sin and lay down his life on the cross for the sins of the world.
“How much more shall the blood of Christ (speaking of the blood the Jesus the ANOINTED one shed on the cross for our sin and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world) WHO (speaking of Jesus) THROUGH the ETERNAL SPIRIT (meaning THROUGH the power of the ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT who DWELT IN his Jesus was empowered or STRENGTHENED and) offered himself without spot (or without sin) to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. And for this cause (or for this very reason of obeying his God and Father to live without sin , do all the will of the ONE God even to suffer and die on the cross) he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”
So then dear child of God Jesus cannot be ONE and the SELF SAME being as the ONE true and only ALMIGHTY God the FATHER, because Jesus is our MEDIATOR BETWEEN us and Almighty God the Father.
Now I was you to notice that the ONE Spirit is called the ETERNAL Spirit in the verse and in 1 Timothy 6:13-16 we read where there is only ONE who has always been an IMMORTAL or ETERNAL ans INVISIBLE being who is called the ONLY POTENTATE, which means the ONLY sovereign ruler of ALL.
1 Timothy 6:13-16.
“I give you CHARGE in the sight of God, who quickens all things (or who gives life to all things), AND before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14. THAT you keep this commandment (or I give to CHARGE before Almighty God and his SON Jesus THAT you KEEP this TEACHING) without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times (speaking of the first coming of Jesus and his second coming as well) he (Jesus) shall show, who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (The word Potentate means the ONLY Sovereign or ALMIGHTY God over ALL including his Son Jesus. Some Christians think this verse is speaking of Jesus as being the ONLY Almighty God, because Jesus is called the King of kings and the Lord of Lords, but Jesus did NOT come to SHOW us HIMSELF. Rather Jesus came to SHOW us the FATHER to be the ONLY TRUE God.)
16. Who ONLY has immortality (meaning that Almighty God who is SPIRIT is the ONLY one who has always been IMMORTAL of ETERNAL), dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; WHOM no man has seen, nor can see (God is SPIRIT who is INVISIBLE and cannot be SEEN with mortal eyes. But Jesus was seen by many people. So then the WHO ONLY who has always been the divine immortal eternal invisible Spirit is Almighty God the FATHER): to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.”
So then, IF SO BE that Jesus did PREEXISTED as a SEPARATE divine ETERNAL Spirit WITH Almighty God by his side, then that would make TWO who always had IMMORTALITY, which would be a DIRECT CONTRADICTION with the word of Almighty God here in 1 Timothy 6:13-16 which clearly and plainly teaches us that there was bu ONE ONLY who has always possessed IMMORTALITY withing himself and the ONE eternal being is the INVISIBLE God who is SPIRIT. In other words, The Holy Spirit IS the FATHER seeing that the is but ONE ETERNAL Spirit.
Therefore ALL the verses that may SEEM to teach that Jesus PREEXISTED are NOT TRULY saying that Jesus preexisted, because the word of God does NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF. So you see dear child of God it is the INTERPRETATION of these verses that make it SEEM as if Jesus had to preexist to have these verses make any sense.
We have already taken a CLOSER look at a few of these verses in question that SEEM as if they are teaching a preexisting Jesus as a SECOND separate person who was WITH God at his side. And we have found another meaning or interpretation of those verses that do NOT have ANY contradictions with any other part of God's word.
Now let us take a closer look at some more of the questionable verses that are used to try and teach that Jesus preexisted as the SON OF God.
FOURTH verse is QUESTION:
“But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth (some translation have whose origins) have been from of old, from everlasting.”
Now this verse does NOT mean that Jesus was brought forth from all eternity past, but rather means that BOTH the FIRST and the SECOND COMINGS of Jesus were PLANNED or ordained by Almighty God from long ago before the foundation of the world. And if one dogmatically demands that this verse must without fail be translated as “whose ORIGINS”, then the CORRECT interpretation would be FIRST the ORIGIN of Jesus being BORN as a HUMAN being and SECOND the ORIGIN of Jesus being the FIRST BORN from the dead to INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE given to him of his God and Father. Please notice that the word “GOINGS” is in the plural and likewise ORIGINS is in the PLURAL as well. No matter how one interprets this verse the meaning always proves that Jesus had no less than TWO BEGINNINGS of ORIGINS.
So to me the CORRECT translation means that the GOINGS forth of Jesus or the ORIGINS of Jesus were PLANNED by Almighty God in days of old from ages long ago. And then God SPOKE forth his PLANS to his prophets of old and men of old WROTE DOWN these PROPHECIES of God foretelling of his yet coming Son. You see dear child of God the even CONTEXT of this verse in question speaks or PROPHESIES of Jesus being BORN in the little town of Bethlehem, which would be his FIRST coming forth. And in the SECOND GOING FORTH of Jesus he will be RULER in the world to come as an IMMORTAL human having a flesh and bone body.
The FIFTH verse in QUESTION:
“And no MAN (or no HUMAN) has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of MAN (or the Son of the HUMANS) which is in heaven.”
Well we know that Jesus did NOT preexist up in heaven as a HUMAN BEING and this verse says that no HUMAN has ascended UP to heaven except the Son of MAN who came down from heaven and now is in heaven.
So then, one interpretation of this verse can be that right after the death and resurrection of Jesus he ascended up into heaven to his God and Father as the Son of MAN. God then GAVE his Son Jesus immortality and Jesus then CAME DOWN from Heaven to show himself alive for 40 days and then Jesus ascended back up into heaven a SECOND time as the Son of MAN where he awaits his SECOND coming.
Please read John 20:17 where Jesus tells Mary Magdalene right after God raised him from the grave NOT to TOUCH him for he has NOT YET ASCENDED to the Father.
“Jesus said unto her, TOUCH me NOT; for (or BECAUSE) I am NOT YET ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY God, and your God.”
The only reason Jesus gives Mary NOT to TOUCH him is that he has NOT YET ASCENDED to his God and Father. Later that same day in the evening Jesus appeared to his disciples.
“Then the SAME day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20. And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.”
Then we we compare John with Luke 24:37-51 we see Jesus ASKING his disciple to HANDLE him or TOUCH him saying that a Spirit has NOT flesh and bone as Jesus NOW has. So then BETWEEN that early morning hour to the evening Jesus ASCENDED to his God and Father AND descended back down to the earth to show himself ALIVE never more to die for forty days.
“ And as they thus spoke, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38. And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: HANDLE me (or TOUCH ME), and see; for a spirit has NOT flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (So then, BETWEEN the time Jesus had spoken to Mary Magdalene saying TOUCH me NOT. WHY? BECAUSE I have NOT YET ASCENDED to my Father; and the time Jesus appeared to his disciples that SAME evening saying TOUCH me for a SPIRIT has NOT flesh and bone as you see me HAVE Jesus had ASCENDED UP to heaven to his God and Father to RECEIVE his new glorified IMMORTAL body of flesh and bone. This is the ONLY time we read in the Bible anywhere where the Son of the HUMANS ever came down from heaven AFTER first ASCENDING UP to heaven. So once again Jesus did NOT PREEXIST as a LITERAL Son of the HUMANS up in heaven with Almighty God, which is what John 3:13 is saying to us: “And no MAN (or no HUMAN) has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of MAN (or the Son of the HUMANS) which is in heaven.” )
40. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet.
41. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have you here any meat?
42. And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43. And he took it, and did eat before them. (showing them AGAIN that he was NOT a SPIRIT.)
44. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48. And you are witnesses of these things.
49. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. (Remember in John 14 where Jesus said where I go you cannot follow and Peter said he would even lay down his life for Jesus. Then Jesus said WILL YOU lay down your life for me? Nay but you shall deny me three time before the cock crows. I go to prepare a PLACE for you speaking of CLEANSE us from sin so that the Holy Spirit can DWELL IN US even as the Holy Spirit was DWELLING IN Jesus. Jesus said BECAUSE I go the Father YOU can be where I AM, which is being FILLED with the Holy Spirit to be ENDUED with POWER from on high. For all the verses and a deeper understanding of the AUTHORITY and POWER that you have been GIVEN as a believer in Jesus please read the study “THE POWER AND THE AUTHORITY OF THE BELIEVER!”.
50. And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.”
So then, Jesus as the Son of MAN ascended up the heaven, received his new glorified immortal body, CAME DOWN for heaven as the Son of MAN and then forty days later ASCENDED back up into heaven as the Son of MAN where he is now awaiting his SECOND coming to rule and reign for a 1000 years on the earth.
Here is another interpretation of John 3:13,
“And no MAN (or no HUMAN) has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of MAN (or the Son of the HUMANS) which is in heaven.”
Again Jesus KNEW that the scriptures spoke of HIM so he knew that the SOURCE of his origin of being conceived in the womb of Mary his mother was from ABOVE. Jesus KNEW that the LOGOS of God was came down out of heaven from God by the angel Gabriel and was SPOKEN to the virgin Mary who received God's LOGOS or God's SAYING, his SPOKEN word to her and said to God be it done unto me according to your LOGOS, you spoken word to me.
So then, Jesus is the ONLY SON of MAN who has ever been born PHYSICALLY from ABOVE without having a HUMAN father to conceive them. This interpretation also agrees with the rest of God's word and does not contradict the Old Testament saints ascending up into heaven when Jesus DESCENDED first into the belly of the earth to preach to the spirits being held there. And then when Jesus was raised form the dead many rose from the dead WITH Jesus. These who rose with Jesus are believed by many Christians to have ascended up into heaven to await their new glorified immortal bodies of flesh and bone like Jesus has now AT the second coming of Jesus. Please read the study “WHAT and WHERE IS PARADISE?”
The SIXTH verse in QUESTION:
“For God SENT not his Son INTO the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
In other words, ALL the verses that say that the SON OF God was SENT INTO the world are INTERPRETED by some Christians as God SENDING his SON down out of heaven down to the earth to BECOME a human being, but YET REMAIN fully Almighty God and thus be a GOD/MAN having TWO natures, one DIVINE and one HUMAN.
But in truth in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God ALL these verses mean that God sent or COMMISSIONED his Son Jesus to go OUT INTO the world to show us the FATHER and the kingdom of God. And any verse which SEEMS to be saying that Jesus HIMSELF LITERALLY came down out of heaven down to the earth to then BECOME the Son of MAN simply means that the LOGOS came down out of heaven down to the earth where the LOGOS was the SPOKEN SAYING, or the SPOKEN word of God and NOT a LITERAL SEPARATE divine eternal Spirit being who was WITH Almighty God before the foundation of the world.
Please read John 16:27-30 where Jesus HIMSELF teaches us that he CAME OUT FROM the Father, just as John 1:1-14 teaches us where the LOGOS was WITHING THE God and what God was the LOGOS BECAME. Meaning what God desire WITHING himself the be or come in to existence his LOGOS, his SAYING, or his SPOKEN word COMING OUT FROM WITHIN God became what ever God himself SPOKE into being. And the LOGOS BECAME flesh. Or literally Almighty God HIMSELF BECOMES what ever Almighty God DESIRES WITHIN HIMSELF to become WHEN God speaks forth that IMAGE of desire God has WITHIN himself. Please read the study “JOHN 1:1---THE WORD WAS GOD!” for all the scriptures that cleary show you that the LOGOS, the Word that was with God was NOT a SEPARATE divine eternal Spirit being who was WITH God at his side and those in the main stream denomination churches wrongly teach.
“For the Father himself loves you, BECAUSE you have loved me, and have BELIEVED that I CAME OUT FROM God.
28. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world (So once again HOW did Jesus come INTO the world? That is correct, it was the LOGOS, the SAYING of God sent dwon from heaven to be SPOKEN by the prophets of Old first and then by the Angel Gabriel, which was then BELIEVED by Mary to be planted as God's SEED in the WOMB of Mary to be conceived in her womb to be born of a woman as the Son of MAN who would suffer and die for the sins of the world being the LAMB of God that was SLAIN from BEFORE the foundation of the world.): again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speak you plainly, and speak no proverb. 30. Now are we sure that you know all things, and need not that any man should ask you: BY THIS we believe that you came forth from God.”
WHO recorded the RECORD of Jesus? Yes the EYEWITNESS who HEARD directly from the mouth of Jesus his TEACHINGS who the RECORDED what Jesus himself TAUGHT them. This is HOW the disciples KNEW that Jesus did NOT have and earthly father who conceived him. So if was BY THIS the teachings of Jesus that they KNEW that Jesus CAME FORTH FROM God who would be called the Son of the Highest.
You see dear child of God it was actually AFTER the resurrection of Jesus that his God and Father said unto Jesus, THIS DAY have I begotten you meaning that Jesus BECAME the SON OF God on a CERTAIN DAY or point in time clearly teaching us that Jesus had a BEGINNING. Please read Acts 13:28-34 along with Hebrews
“And though they found no cause of death in him,(Jesus was an INNOCENT MAN who was crucified unjustly therefore giving God the right to REDEEM mankind back from his ENEMY that old dragon called Satan and the Devil. This was God PLAN from before the foundation of the world that he kept SECRET from his enemy for had they had KNOWN God's PLAN they would have never crucified the Lord of glory that thus sealed their judgment to be cast it to the lake of fire when God's PLAN is completed to yet bring more SONS and DAUGHTERS into his family where Jesus was the FIRST BORN from the dead the BEGINNING of God's NEW CREATION to inherit the NEW heavens and the NEW earth in the ages to come after the 1000 year reign of Jesus in the world to come. Please read the study “UNDERSTANDING WHY? For all the verses that clearly show what I just said.) yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulcher.
30. But God raised him from the dead:
31. And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32. And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33. God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, You are my Son, THIS DAY day have I begotten you.
34. And AS CONCERNING that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.”
So then, it was the DAY that God raised the Son of MAN from the dead and GAVE his ETERNAL LIFE to have in himself even as Almighty God has always had life in himself that Jesus ACTUALLY BECAME the SON OF Almighty God even though he was called the SON OF God throughout the New Testament, which is again a RECORD and not a play by play minute by minute of what Jesus did and taught.
In other words, it should not be dogmatically taught that every thing in the gospels is in the exact sequence as they took place. Most things are, but in places John and the other writers added their COMMENTARY or explaining the teachings of Jesus.
To say this another way we know that Jesus was NOT GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE before his crucifixion, but yet it is RECORDED early in the gospel of John OUT of the SEQUENCE of the actual events that took place.
Also one must remember that a DAY with God is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years and a DAY so in truth the THIS DAY actually began on the DAY that Jesus was CONCEIVED in the WOMB of the virgin Mary by the SPOKEN LOGOS of God and then was completed on the THIS DAY when Jesus was raised from the dead ascended into heaven and was GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE by his God and Father. Then after Jesus descended back down to heaven to show himself alive fro forty days he ascended up into heaven to be seated at the right hand of his God and Father to await his SECOND coming to rule and reign for 1000 years on the earth. Another passage of scripture that clearly teaches us that Almighty God BECAME a Father and Jesus BECAME his SON is Hebrews 1:3-5 which says,
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4. Being MADE so much better than the angels (You see dear child of God the LOGOS was made to become a little LOWER that the angels at first to be like ALL humans, and it was only AFTER Jesus became obedient to do all the will of his God and father that Almighty God HIGHLY EXACTED him to rule over the angels), as he has by inheritance OBTAINED a more excellent name than they.
5. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, You are my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten you? And again, I WILL BE to him a Father, and he SHALL BE to me a Son?”
So when you interpret those QUESTIONABLE verses in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God it becomes crystal clear that the ONLY way that Jesus PREEXISTED was AS Almighty God HIMSELF who literally became the Son of MAN in the SAME way that Almighty God HIMSELF literally becomes ALL that he himself alone by himself CREATES, which is BY SPEAKING FORTH FROM OUT WITHING HIMSELF the IMAGE that he has painted WITHIN himself to BE brought forth into existence where it never existed before EXCEPT WITHIN the God to one day create. This is what Jesus said the he CAME OUT FROM God. Please read the study “WHAT DOES GOD INCARNATE MEAN?” and “JOHN 1:1---THE WORD WAS GOD!”
The SEVENTH verse in QUESTION:
John 6:33-38 and 62.
“For the BREAD of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives LIFE unto the world. (The BREAD of God is the TEACHING of God which came down from heaven. In other words, Gods WORDS are LIFE to those who find them and health to all their flesh as well. Proverbs 4. And God's words are SPIRIT and LIFE as we shall see in a moment in John 6:63)
34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this BREAD (thinking that Jesus was speaking of real literal BREAD come down from heaven like the MANNA that fell from the heaven in the days of Moses).
35. And Jesus said unto them, I AM the BREAD of LIFE: he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst. (The Jews searched the WORD of God for eternal LIFE and Jesus told them and us that the scriptures TAUGHT of him. Jesus taught only the WORDS that Almighty God the Father gave him to speak. Basically God REVEALED the scriptures to Jesus and then Jesus taught his disciple what God had show him to teach. In other words, Jesus is saying that HE is the FULFILLMENT of the WORD of God which came down from heaven, meaning that the WORDS of God recorded in the Old Testament came down from heaven to the prophets of old by the Holy Spirit and the angels speaking to them God's WORDS or TEACHINGS or BREAD that brings LIFE to those who RECEIVE the TEACHING of God come down from heaven.)
36. But I said unto you, That you also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I (the SPOKEN WORD of God, the BREAD or the TEACHINGS of God come to LIFE to teach you WORDS that shall bring you LIFE) came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me....
…John 6:62 What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickens (or make ALIVE or GIVES LIFE); the flesh profits nothing: the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.
64. BUT there are some of you that believe NOT (teaching us that WITHOUT FAITH being MIXED with the WORDS of God they will NOT profit us to bring us anything. The WORDS of God must be BELIEVED in order to bring LIFE to the one BELIEVING his WORDS or the TEACHINGS of Jesus). For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (Jesus knew from the SCRIPTURES that his God and Father revealed to him. Jesus understood the WORDS of God speaking of the seed of Ishmael who would not believer Jesus but would indeed believe another coming after him in his own name which was fulfilled in Muhammad bring the TEACHING of ISLAM coming from God's enemy Satan, the Devil. And Jesus knew from the teaching of God that one would betray him. In other words, not all of Israel is Israel. There were two seed lines, and ONLY the seed of Isaac was given the promise.)
65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (This ONLY applied up to the cross. AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus WHOSOEVER BELIEVES on the SON OF the living God as being the CHRIST shall be saved. These verses do NOT teach predestination that Jesus only died for SOME people and the REST were created just for the sole purpose of being destroyed in the lake of fire. Please read the study “EXAMINING CALVINISM IN THE LIGHT OF GOD'S WORD!”)
66. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will you also go away?
68. Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the WORDS (or the TEACHINGS or the BREAD) of eternal life.
69. And we BELIEVE and are sure that YOU are THAT Christ, the Son of the living God.”
WHAT Christ? The CHRIST TAUGHT in the SCRIPTURES, the WORDS or God, the TEACHING of God, the BREAD of God come down from heaven and Jesus is the FULFILLMENT of the BREAD come down from heaven. This is what this entire passage of scripture is teaching us and NOT that Jesus PREEXISTED up in heaven as a SEPARATE divine eternal Spirit being WITH Almighty by his side.
The EIGHTH verse in QUESTION:
“What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”
We have already see from the CONTEXT that the BREAD come DOWN from heaven was the FULFILLMENT of the WORDS or prophecy come DOWN from God, which SOME did NOT believe. So Jesus is simply saying WILL you BELIEVE if you SEE me ASCEND up into heaven?
Please read Proverbs 30:4 from the New Century Version.
“Who has GONE UP to heaven and COME BACK DOWN? Who can hold the wind in his hand? Who can gather up the waters in his coat? Who has set in place the ends of the earth? What is his name or his SON'S name? Tell me, if you know!
6. Do not ADD to HIS words, or he will correct you and prove you are a liar.”
Please notice that the WHEN that Jesus CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN was only AFTER Jesus had FIRST ASCENDED UP into heaven after he was raised from the dead to be given IMMORTAL life from his God and Father. And then only AFTER Jesus had ascended UP or GONE UP into heaven is WHEN Jesus came BACK DOWN from heaven to show himself ALIVE by many infallible proofs.
So then, to use these verses to try and prove that Jesus preexisted with the Father IN heaven as a SEPARATE divine eternal Spirit being who was WITH the God by his side is to ADD to the word of God and going beyond what the whole word of God truly teaches us. And Proverbs 30:4-6 warns us that if we ADD to HIS words we will be found to be a liar or false teacher.
The NINTH verse in QUESTION:
“And he said unto them, You are from BENEATH; I am from ABOVE: you are of THIS world; I am NOT of this world.”
This verse is saying the SAME thing as all these verse that SEEM to teach that Jesus preexisted up in heaven and came down to the earth as God the Son to become the Son of MAN, which is that Jesus KNEW the scriptures spoke of HIM. Jesus KNEW the PROPHECY in Isaiah of a CHILD being BORN of a VIRGIN spoke of HIM and therefore Jesus knew by the revelation of his God and Father that the SOURCE of him being conceived in the womb of Mary his mother was from ABOVE. Also Jesus was saying that HE is hearing words spoken to him from ABOVE that are NOT of this world but are from God, and that those who did NOT believe on him were listening to THEIR father the devil from BENEATH and therefore ALL UNBELIEVERS will REMAIN of THIS world and die in their sins.
Let us now read the CONTEXT that clearly teaches us that those from BENEATH are UNBELIEVERS. Jesus says to us as BELIEVERS that WE are IN the world, but NOT OF this world, which again shows us that Jesus is referring to ONLY those who do NOT believe on him as being from BENEATH and OF THIS present world.
Please read John 8:12-32.
“Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that FOLLOWS me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, You bear record of yourself; your record is not true.
14. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I CAME, and whither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. (In other words, Jesus was UNDERSTANDING the SCRIPTURE that spoke of HIM and THEY did NOT understand that the scriptures spoke of HIM. To say this another way these UNBELIEVING Jews did NOT believe that Jesus was miraculously CONCEIVED in the womb of the VIRGIN Mary without a HUMAN father, but BY the SPOKEN word of God. And that did NOT understand the scriptures that spoke of the suffering and death of Jesus and his ascending up into heaven for a time before he would come to rule and reign an deliver them from the armies that seek to destroy them)
15. You judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. (In other words, Jesus was saying that God was WITH him by DWELLING IN him. And that he was only speaking what God himself was teaching him to speak)
17. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.
19. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, You neither know me, NOR my Father: if you had known me, you should have known my Father also. (Later Jesus plainly tells them that THEY are OF THEIR father the DEVIL, which infuriated these UNBELIEVING Jews who wanted to KILL Jesus because of his WORDS or teaching.)
20. These WORDS spoke Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21. Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and you shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, you cannot come.
22. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he said, Whither I go, you cannot come.
23. And he said unto them, You are from BENEATH (meaning that these UNBELIEVING Jews were of their father the DEVIL form BENEATH); I am from ABOVE (Meaning that Jesus is hearing, believing and obeying his God and Father to TEACH the BREAD come down from heaven. Jesus was teaching the WORDS of God that SPOKE of HIM): you are of this world; I am not of this world (meaning that these unbelieving Jews were OBEYING the god of THIS present world and that Jesus was OBEYING his God and Father who is NOT of this present world system. KNOW you NOT that whom you OBEY his SERVANTS you ARE?).
24. I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe NOT that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
25. Then said they unto him, Who are you? And Jesus said unto them, Even the SAME that I said unto you from the BEGINNING (speaking of the beginning of his MINISTRY when his God and Father SENT his Son Jesus INTO the world to proclaim that the kingdom of God is at hand and to show us the Father the one true and only Almighty God. Please read the study “DOES John 8:24 teach us that Jesus is Almighty God?”).
26. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that SENT me (meaning that THE God who sent his Son Jesus OUT into the world to reveal the scriptures) is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have HEARD OF HIM.
27. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28. Then said Jesus unto them, WHEN you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you KNOW that I am he (Again clearly showing us that these verse are NOT teaching CALVINISM, which falsely teaches that God created only certain specific individuals to be saved while at the same time created all other people for the sole purpose to be destroyed in the lake of fire and there is NOTHING that either group of people can do or not do to CHANGE their SUPPOSED predestined destiny), and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has TAUGHT me, I speak these things. (or I speak ONLY what the Father has shown me to speak, thus what I speak are HIS words and NOT my own words or my own TEACHING, but rather the BREAD or the TEACHING that came down from heaven that speak of ME)
29. And he that sent me is WITH me (Also teaching us that Jesus was NOT Almighty God HIMSELF): the Father has not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30. As he spake these WORDS, many believed on him.
31. Then said Jesus to THOSE Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
32. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
So then. the TRUE meaning of John 8:23 where Jesus says, “you are from BENEATH and I am from ABOVE” is that these UNBELIEVING Jews were being deceived by the god of this present world from BENEATH and that Jesus was following the teaching of his God and Father from ABOVE.
Please skip on down to verse 44, which is still the CONTEXT of verse 32, where Jesus says PLAINLY to these same UNBELIEVING Jews that they are of THEIR father the DEVIL who we KNOW is from BENEATH.
Please read John 8:41-45.
“You do the DEEDS of YOUR father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do you NOT understand my speech (or my WORDS that I have heard for God the BREAD come down from heaven that speak of ME)? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. You are of your father the devil (or YOU are from BENEATH), and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (KNOW you NOT that whom you SERVE HIS servants you ARE?)
45. And because I tell you the TRUTH, you believe me NOT.”
So again Jesus is speaking to THOSE Jews who did NOT BELIEVE telling THEM that THEY are from BENEATH by believing and following the LIES of their father the DEVIL.
Remember to dogmatically demand that Jesus must without fail had PREEXISTED as a SEPARATE divine eternal Spirit being who was WITH the God at his side and was sent down from out of heaven by the God down into the world to BECOME flesh is to directly contradict 1 Timothy 6:13-16 which clearly teaches us that there was only ONE who has always had IMMORTALITY in himself.
1 Timothy 6:13-16.
“I give you CHARGE in the sight of God, who quickens all things (or who gives life to all things), AND before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14. THAT you keep this commandment (or I give to CHARGE before Almighty God and his SON Jesus THAT you KEEP this TEACHING) without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times (speaking of the first coming of Jesus and his second coming as well) he (Jesus) shall show, who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (The word Potentate means the ONLY Sovereign or ALMIGHTY God over ALL including his Son Jesus. Some Christians think this verse is speaking of Jesus as being the ONLY Almighty God, because Jesus is called the King of kings and the Lord of Lords, but Jesus did NOT come to SHOW us HIMSELF. Rather Jesus came to SHOW us the FATHER to be the ONLY TRUE God.
16. Who ONLY has immortality (meaning that Almighty God who is SPIRIT is the ONLY one who has always been IMMORTAL of ETERNAL), dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; WHOM no man has seen, nor can see (God is SPIRIT who is INVISIBLE and cannot be SEEN with mortal eyes. But Jesus was seen by many people. So then the WHO ONLY who has always been the divine immortal eternal invisible Spirit is Almighty God the FATHER): to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.”
So then, IF SO BE that Jesus did PREEXISTED as a SEPARATE divine ETERNAL Spirit WITH Almighty God by his side, then that would make TWO who always had IMMORTALITY, which would be a DIRECT CONTRADICTION with the word of Almighty God here in 1 Timothy 6:13-16 which clearly and plainly teaches us that there was bu ONE ONLY who has always possessed IMMORTALITY withing himself and the ONE eternal being is the INVISIBLE God who is SPIRIT. In other words, The Holy Spirit IS the FATHER seeing that the is but ONE ETERNAL Spirit. Please read the study ""THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE FATHER!" for a deeper understanding that the Bible ITSELF truly only teaches us of TWO rather the THREE as the doctrine of the trinity teaches.
All these verses in QUESTION that SEEM to teach that Jesus PREEXISTED do NOT dogmatically demand that Jesus MUST have preexisted without fail, because in TRUTH they ALL AGREE with the understanding that Jesus KNEW that the word of God spoke of HIM. There is not one single PROPHECY of God the SON coming down from out of heaven down to the earth to become flesh but yet REMAIN fully God having TWO natures, one divine and one human.
NOR are there any PROPHECIES of Almighty God himself coming down out of heaven down to the earth to become flesh but yet REMAIN fully God having TWO natures one divine and one human.
But rather EVERY THING we read in the PROPHECIES concerning HOW Jesus will come speaks of the SPOKEN WORD of God becoming flesh having stripped himself of ALL his DIVINE nature to take on the nature of the HUMANS.
Jesus UNDERSTOOD the scriptures and KNEW of the GLORY that would follow if he OBEYED his God and Father to do ALL his will.
1 Peter 1:3-13 teaches us that the prophets of old were desiring to look into this glory that was to follow in the world to come.
5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6. Wherein you greatly REJOICE, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and GLORY at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8. Whom having not seen, you love; in whom, though now you see him not, yet believing, you REJOICE with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified BEFOREHAND the sufferings of Christ, AND the GLORY that should FOLLOW.
12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
I believe that Jesus UNDERSTOOD that the scriptures spoke of HIM and so Jesus knew that this GLORY was stored up in heaven being RESERVED for him. So in John 17:4 Jesus is simply asking his God and Father to glorify him with the ETERNAL LIFE that was reserved for him by his Father's side which was planned for his SON BEFORE the foundation of the world and certainly given to him before the world to come.
Now please read Psalm 89:19-27, which clearly teaches us that Almighty God himself is THE ROCK and God OF his SON Jesus.
“Then you (My God and My Father) spoke in VISION to your holy one (the Bible teaches us that Jesus separated himself to pray to his God and Father. And we are also told that it would take all the books in the world to tell of Jesus and even then all would not be told. So even though the New Testament does not specifically tell us of Jesus having a vision and what Jesus saw in that vision we still know that Almighty God spoke to his SON Jesus through visions and revelations by the Holy Spirit. So then Almighty God spoke to Jesus in a VISION), and said, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one CHOSEN OUT of the people.
20. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: (as in other places David is a SHADOW or a FIGURE or a PROPHECY or the coming Messiah, Jesus, the Son of Almighty God. In other words, through VISIONS and other means Almighty God REVEALED to Jesus that the scriptures spoke of HIM.)
25. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26. He (speaking of Jesus) shall cry unto me, You are MY father, MY God, and the ROCK of my salvation. (Jesus was saved from hell. God did not leave the soul of his Son Jesus in hell, but rather saved his soul alive by resurrecting his Son from the dead and giving his Son eternal life.)
27. Also I will make him my FIRSTBORN, higher than the kings of the earth.”
In verse 27 we clearly see that this passage of scripture is a PROPHECY of Jesus whom Almighty God will make to be his FIRSTBORN child. Jesus is described as being the FIRSTBORN of every creature in Colossians 1:15, the FIRSTBORN from the dead in Colossians 1:18, and the FIRSTBORN among MANY brethren in Romans 8:29. And Jesus is the only one whom the Bible teaches us that Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED and gave a name about every other name to be made a King of kings and a Lord of lords.
You can read these verses later, but for now the focus of this study is to determine to WHOM the ROCK of the Old Testament is referring. Is the ROCK speaking of YEHWEH the Almighty, or is the ROCK referring to Jesus? And if so be that the ROCK is referring to Jesus, then does this prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God himself? In other words, does 1 Corinthians 10:4 prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus himself PREEXISTED? And if so be that Jesus himself is proven to have preexisted, then does this prove that Jesus himself is THE ALMIGHTY God?
Here in Psalm 89 we can clearly and plainly see that Jesus is NOT the ROCK, but rather Jesus is calling HIS God and Father the ROCK of his own salvation. There are several places in the New Testament where Jesus did indeed fulfilled this prophecy by crying out to his God and Father calling Almighty God in MY God, MY God, why have your forsaken me in Matthew 27:46, touch me not, for I ascend to MY Father and your father, and to MY God and your God in John 20:17, and then in Revelation 3:12 we read where Jesus called Almighty God his God four times in that single verse, which to me makes it blatantly clear that Almighty God the Father is God over his Son Jesus.
“Him that overcomes will I (Jesus) make a pillar in the temple of MY God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY God, and the name of the city of MY God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
Now some or the following verse clearly and plainly refer to Almighty God as being THE ROCK, as in, being a fortress or a defense to be trusted. Then in other verses in the Old Testament speaking of the rock that Moses smote with the rod of Aaron are most definitely referring to the coming Messiah who will give LIVING WATER to those who believe in him as the Son of Almighty God who died for their sins.
Exodus 17:1-6 speaks of the rock of Horeb that Almighty God himself stood before to bring forth the life giving water when Moses smote the rock.
Numbers 20:1-13 speaks of the rock of Horeb that Moses was commanded to SPEAK to, but Moses smote the rock twice.
Deuteronomy chapter 8 speaks of the rock or Horeb.
Deuteronomy chapter 32 is speaking of Yehweh.
1 Samuel 2:2 is speaking of Yehweh.
2 Samuel chapter 22 is speaking of Yehweh.
2 Samuel 23:3 is speaking of Yehweh.
Psalm 18 is a prophecy of Jesus who is speaking to his God as being his ROCK.
Psalm 28 is a prophecy of Jesus crying out to his ROCK.
Psalm 31 is a prophecy of Jesus calling upon his ROCK for strength. Now some INTERPRET verse 10 to mean that the person speaking hear could not be Jesus because this person sinned. But if you read this Psalm carefully you will see that men were seeking to take this mans life. Did not Jesus PRAY in the garden for strength right before he surrendered himself to be crucified? Did take Jesus freely take upon OUR sins as his OWN when he bore OUR sins upon the cross? Well this Hebrew word that is translated as iniquity carries that meaning of looking at the PUNISHMENT of sin. So another was to communicate verse 10 would be to say, my strength fail because of the punishment that awaits me.
Psalm 42 is speaking of God being the rock.
Psalm 61 is speaking of God being the rock higher than I.
Psalm 62 is speaking of God as being our only rock.
Psalm 72 is a prophecy of Jesus calling out to his rock.
Psalm 78 is the rock in the wilderness that was broken for the people of Israel. They remembered that Almighty God was their rock. It is not so much the rock itself, but what the rock provided for the people. What I mean by this is that Almighty God himself created the rock, created the water stored in or beneath the rock, then provided a way for the rock to be broken in order to bring forth water to give LIFE to SAVE the his people. Please read the study “Titus 2:13 WHO IS OUR SAVIOR GOD OR JESUS?”.
Psalm 92:15 is speaking of Yehweh.
Psalm 94 is speaking of Almighty God Yehweh.
Psalm 95 is speaking of Yehweh.
Psalm 105 teaches us that Almighty God sent Moses who smote or hit the rock, but it was Almighty God himself who was the one who opened the rock to gush forth waters like rivers.
Psalm 114 again teaches us that is was Almighty God himself who turned the rock into standing water.
Isaiah 17 is speaking of God being the rock.
Isaiah 48:21 teaches us again that God is the one who caused the water to come out of the rock/
Jeremiah 23:29 likens God's word to a hammer that breaks the rock.
In 1 Peter 2:8 and Romans 9:33 Jesus is called a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to those who REJECT him as being the MESSIAH that give to those who BELIEVE upon him LIVING WATER to drink.
So in the same way that Jesus is MADE to be both Lord and Christ, raised up to be a savior of the people, highly exalted to be made a King of kings, Jesus is made to be “A” rock that was broken so that whosoever DRINKS the water of LIFE that is brought forth by Almighty God from the rock shall LIVE and not perish.
In other words, the whole word of God clearly teaches us that the literal physical “ROCK” in the wilderness was a TYPE or a FIGURE of the coming MESSIAH, Jesus, the CHRIST, whom Almighty God himself sent and gave to be broken for our sin so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of Almighty God shall not perish by shall have eternal life.
So then, while 1 Corinthians 10:4 says that ROCK is CHRIST and the Old Testament says that THE ROCK is Almighty God HIMSELF does NOT dogmatically mean without fail that Jesus is THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF as some FALSELY conclude.
NOR does this mean that Jesus PREEXISTED as the SECOND person of the trinity as some falsely teach.
But rather this verse simple means that the verses in the Old Testament speaking of the literal physical rock that was broken and brought forth water was a TYPE or a FIGURE that was a PROPHECY of the coming Messiah, Jesus, the CHRIST, who would become obedient to do all the will of his God and Father to be HIGHLY EXALTED and given a name above all names so that every knee shall bow and confess that Jesus Christ in the anointed one to the glory of Almighty God the Father.
In truth every thing that Jesus is was GIVEN to him by his God and Father the ALMIGHTY. So the living water that Jesus will give to all the faithful believers was COMMITTED unto him to do so by his God and Father who is over ALL including his SON Jesus.
Again I do not teach these truths to bring Jesus down, but rather to show YOU who you truly are being IN CHRIST Jesus. I teach the HUMANITY of Jesus so you can see that the eternal Spirit, Almighty God the Father himself DWELT IN his SON Jesus and that this SAME eternal Spirit, Almighty God the Father HIMSELF now DWELLS IN YOU as a BELIEVER in Jesus being the SON OF Almighty God the Father.
Please read 1 John 4:6-16.
“We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of TRUTH, and the spirit of error.
7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.
8. He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.
9. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God SENT his only begotten SON into the world, that we might live through him.
10. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and SENT his SON to be the propitiation for our sins.
11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12. No man has seen God at any time (because God is SPIRIT and he is INVISIBLE so that NO man can EVER SEE him). If we love one another, God DWELLS IN us, and his love is perfected in us.
13. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and HE IN US, BECAUSE he (Almighty God the Father) has GIVEN us of his Spirit. (this verse along with many others verse clearly teaches us that Almighty God and the Holy Spirit are ONE and the SELF SAME BEING. So we have Almighty God the FATHER who IS the Holy Spirit and we have God's SON Jesus.)
14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
15. Whosoever shall CONFESS that Jesus is the SON of God, God DWELLS IN him, and he in God. (No where in the word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible, have I myself ever found that we are commanded or taught to CONFESS or BELIEVE that Jesus HIMSELF IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God. But here we are CLEARLY and PLAINLY taught to believe and CONFESS that Jesus is the SON of Almighty God the Father.)
16. And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God IN him.”
And if so be that God is IN US, then most assuredly God is WITH us. And since God is with us he must surely be for us. And since God is for us, then who can be against us. Jesus said that WORKS that he did YOU shall do ALSO. Almighty God the Father is our ROCK and Jesus his SON his our sure FOUNDATION.
But yet in the LIGHT of all this evidence from God's word of TRUTH there are some Christians who will say what about this verse or what about that verse because they have been dogmatically demand that the ONLY meaning these verse can have is that Jesus MUST without fail PREEXISTED and God the SON who was WITH God by his side from all eternity past WITHOUT ever having a BEGINNING. So for all the DOUBTING Thomas Christians I will explain in detail ALL the verses in QUESTION that I have been made aware. This brings us to the tenth verse in question used by some to teach the doctrine of the trinity and that Jesus preexisted as God the SON up in heaven WITH God by his side as an eternal divine Spirit being.
The TENTH verse in QUESTION:
“I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”
Again the question is HOW Jesus CAME FORTH FROM the Father? As we have already seen that is one INTERPRETS this verse or ANY other verse to mean that Jesus PREEXISTED UP in heaven WITH the Father by his side as a SEPARATE divine ETERNAL Spirit being, then this INTERPRETATION CONTRADICTS the verse that clearly teach us that there is but ONE Spirit and that the ONE Spirit ALONE ONLY has always been IMMORTAL or ETERNAL SPIRIT.
Therefore the true meaning of this verse that AGREES with the WHOLE word of Almighty God WITHOUT any contradictions to any other part of God's word is that Jesus CAME FORTH FROM the Father as God's SPOKEN word or SAYING coming OUT FROM WITHING the God to bring FORTH his Son into existence to be conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary to be born of a woman as the scriptures teach us. For unto to us a child is BORN and THEN this child when he has grown a SON shall be GIVEN.
Please read Isaiah 9:6,7.
“For unto us a CHILD is BORN, (THEN) unto us a SON is GIVEN: and (THEN at the SECOND coming of Jesus) the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (So then at the second coming of Jesus the SON OF the living God WILL BE called as these names. The title “everlasting Father” LITERALLY means “the Father OF everlasting LIFE” Jesus was GIVEN all authority and power to give eternal life to whomsoever he choose BY his God and Father THE ALMIGHTY.)
7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts WILL perform this.”
So then again, HOW was this CHILD BORN? The BIBLE ITSELF teaches us that God SENT FORTH his LOGOS, his SPOKEN word, his SPOKEN saying down out of heaven BY his Angel Gabriel who then SPOKE God's LOGOS to the virgin Mary who then believed and received God's SPOKEN desire and said be it done unto me according to your WORD referring to God's word spoken to her by the Angel Gabriel. And then unto us was a CHILD BORN who would be called the SON OF the highest and who WOULD be GIVEN to lay down his life on the cross for the sins of the world.
The ELEVETH verse in QUESTION:
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God SENDING his OWN SON in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”
Those who teach the doctrine of the trinity sometimes use this verse to teach that God the SON came down out of heaven to BECOME FLESH or to take on SINFUL FLESH.
Again it was Almighty God HIMSELF who literally became a human being by SPEAKING forth the DESIRE WITHIN himself to BECOME FLESH and dwell among mankind. Please read the study “WHAT DOES GOD INCARNATE MEAN?” for all the verses that clearly teach us that Almighty God himself by himself alone creates all things BY his SPOKEN word or SAYING where God HIMSELF literally BECOMES what he desires to be. And God SAID let there BE light and light came into being where light never existed before EXCEPT in the MIND and PLAN WITHIN God to come into being.
So then, in TRUTH Jesus did NOT take on SINFUL FLESH when the LOGOS, the SPOKEN SAYING of God became FLESH, but rather Jesus took upon himself the SINS of mankind AT the CROSS and NOT at his BIRTH. For you see if so be that Almighty God himself took on SINFUL FLESH in the womb of the virgin Mary, then the SON of MAN would have been BORN with SINFUL FLESH. And therefore Jesus would NOT have been WITHOUT SIN and God could NOT have been able DWELT IN his Son Jesus, because the Holy Spirit will NOT dwell in an UNCLEAN vessel. So NO a thousand times NO. The SON OF the living God did NOT take of the SINFUL FLESH of mankind UNTIL the CROSS when God laid upon his SON the sins of the world to be carried by his SON Jesus to be nailed to the CROSS to CONDEMN sin in the flesh.
One of the meaning of the word “SEND” is to thrust upon or to lay upon. So then, the true understand of Romans 8:3 is that God LAID upon his SON Jesus the SINS of us all or the SINFUL FLESH of us all to CONDEMN sin in the flesh
Please read Isaiah 53:6.
“ All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity (or SIN or SINFUL FLESH) of us all.”
In other words, Jesus, the Son of MAN, became our EXAMPLE to FOLLOW who did NO sin in order to CONDEMN sin in the flesh. Our INIQUITIES were laid upon Jesus to provide the CLEANSING of our vessels so that God could NOW DWELL IN us as believers in Jesus as God dwelt in his Son Jesus. Read the CONTEXT of Romans 8:3 that teaches us if so be that we walk AFTER the SPIRIT and NOT after the FLESH that we shall not have any condemnation in us.
Please read Romans 8:1-13.
“ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, (AND) who walk NOT AFTER the FLESH, BUT AFTER the SPIRIT.
2. For (or because) the law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus (or the eternal Spirit who is the source of all life who DWELT IN the ANOINTED one Jesus speaking of Almighty God the Father himself dwelling IN his Son Jesus) has made me FREE from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for (or concerning) sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (basically God was establishing his law of commandments to NOT be grievous and therefore establishing the justice of disapproval of SIN in the FLESH by the Son of MAN who did NO sin in the FLESH.)
4. That (or so that) the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT after the flesh, but AFTER the SPIRIT. (who DWELLS IN us to empower us to live WITHOUT sin as Jesus lived WITHOUT sin as our EXAMPLE to follow.)
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (So SET you MIND on the things of God and NOT upon the things of the FLESH in order to live without sin.)
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Remember that Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS in Jesus Christ here and NOT unbelievers. Paul is saying just because you are IN Jesus Christ does not make you to be a son or daughter of God for whom you SERVE his servant you ARE. In other words, ONLY those believers who walk AFTER the SPIRIT and NOT after the FLESH shall be the sons and daughters of God. You will see this to be true if you continue reading)
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God DWELL IN you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies BY his Spirit that DWELLS IN in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, NOT to the flesh, to live after the flesh. (In other words, you do NOT have to OBEY your WEAKER nature of the FLESH that BEGS you to SIN, but we ARE DEBTORS of RIGHTEOUSNESS to walk AFTER or in OBEDIENCE TO the Holy Spirit who DWELLS IN US.)
13. For (or BECAUSE) if you live AFTER the flesh (to obey what your FLESH begs you to do, which you KNOW is SIN), you shall DIE: BUT if you THROUGH the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall LIVE.
14. For as MANY as are led BY the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
In other words, as MANY as are led by the FLESH are the children of the DEVIL and shall DIE if so be that they CONTINUE to walk after or be led by their FLESH.
The TWELTH verse in QUESTION:
“But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
So again the question is HOW was Jesus, the Son of MAN made of a woman? Did God send his SON down out of heaven down to the earth to manifest himself to become FLESH and be born of a woman as the man made doctrine of the trinity, the doctrine deity of Jesus and doctrine of oneness teaches?
OR does the Bible ITSELF teach us that God sent forth his LOGOS down out of heaven to the earth to be SPOKEN the the virgin Mary by his Angel Gabriel. And when Mary believed and received God's LOGOS, his SPOKEN word saying be it done unto me according to your LOGOS the Holy Spirit moved upon Mary and the LOGOS, the SPOKEN Saying of God's desire to BE was conceived in the womb of Mary to be BORN of a woman UNDER the law.
THEN God sent forth his Son into the world, as in, OUT into the world to show us the Father and declare that the kingdom of God is at hand. THEN God sent his Son to the CROSS to set us free from the bondage of sin.
Please read Proverbs 30:4-6, where we read a PROPHECY of the yet coming into being of God's Son who will ASCEND UP into heaven to be seated at the right hand of his God and Father. This verse is speaking of TWO persons asking questions about BOTH persons.
“Who HAS ASCENDED UP INTO HEAVEN, or descended (Literally reading “IS DESCENDING”, which could be interpreted as the SECOND coming of Jesus when the SON OF God will be descending down from heaven. Or this last phrase could be interpreted as Almighty God himself who will be DESCENDING down to the earth at the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus to tabernacle with mankind)? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, AND what is his son's name, if you can tell?
5. Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6. Add you NOT unto his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.”
Remember that the original text has no verses and the verses are placed by the translator as he sees conveys the best meaning. Now when I read the LITERAL translation I myself see that there should be NO break between the phase “AND what is his SON'S name, if you can tell?” and the Phrase “Every word of God is pure:” In other words these two separated phrases SHOULD go together like so:
“...And what is his SON'S name, if you can tell every WORD of God is pure:...”
Now the King James translation may not be clear but the LITERAL translation of the last part of verse 4 and the first part of verse 5, which reads as follows, to me, makes it quite clear that these two phrases should not have been separated by the translators:
“And what? Name of SON of him that your are knowing every SAYING of God ONE BEING refined or ONE BEING made PURE.”
In other words, through every SAYING of God is ONE being made without spot of blemish as the PURE LAMB that God is providing for himself as his salvation for mankind. To say this another way the Old Testament is filled with PROPHECY of a YET COMING SON who would be GIVEN as an atonement for the sins of the world.
So then, NO where does the Bible ITSELF clearly and plainly teach us that Jesus PREEXISTED as God the SON up in heaven at the side of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit as the doctrine of the trinity dogmatically demands that Christians MUST without fail believe in order to be saved CLAIMING that anyone who does NOT believe in the doctrine of the trinity is NOT a true Christian.
So if YOU, the reader and seeker of the truth, are STRUGGLING what to believe in FEAR of not being a TRUE Christian if so be that you DENY the doctrine of the trinity, then I implore you to ask GOD where in his word does the Bible ITSELF teach that one MUST without fail believe the doctrine of the trinity is order to be SAVED?
The ONLY verse that those who dogmatically demand must believe that doctrine of the trinity in order to be saved is John 8:24, which THEY INTERPRET to mean that Jesus is saying, “If you do not believe that I AM THE GREAT I AM Almighty God HIMSELF, then you shall die in your sins.”
Please read the studies “JOHN 8:24---IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT I AM HE!” and “JOHN 8:58---BEFORE ABRAHAM I AM!” for the true sound Biblical meanings of these verses. Also below is a list of verses used to try and teach that God is a trinity and that Jesus is Almighty God himself having TWO natures one divine and one human, which I have an IN DEPTH study showing you from the word of TRUTH the true meaning of each and every one of these verses.
Thanks for reading. May God bless you richly as you continue to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Below are some other verses that are used to try and support the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Jesus. There may be other verses which you may be having trouble seeing any other way than what you were dogmatically taught over and over for so long, but I assure you that each and every verse used by those who teach the doctrine of the trinity does indeed have a different meaning that does NOT CONTRADICT any other part of God's word. If there is a verse that I have not listed please do not hesitate to write and let me know. Some verse are included in others studies and they may not appear as an individual study.If there is a verse of verses that you seem to struggle with only being able to see the doctrine of the trinity when you read this verse, then please search out the truth be listening to the other side of the controversy. No one can arrive at the truth by hearing only ONE side of the controversy. I only present you with ALL the evidence that I myself have found and leave it to you to decide what you want to believe.
Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
Verses used to try and support the doctrine of the trinity.
Thanks for reading. May God bless you richly as you continue to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.
Your brother in our Lord Jesus the CHRIST.