DID JESUS PREEXIST as the SON OF God?


DID JESUS PREEXIST?


                First of all what is meant by this question, “Did Jesus preexist”? Well this term preexist means different things to different Christian churches or different denominations of the Christian church, who believe that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah who died for their sins and was raised from the dead never more to die and now sits at the right hand of God on his Father's throne awaiting his second coming. 

                So then, the question is not actually did Jesus preexist? But rather the question is HOW did Jesus PREEXIST?

                #1. Did Jesus preexist as the SON OF God?

                #2. Did Jesus preexist as God the Son?

                #3. Did Jesus preexist as an Angel?

                #4. Did Jesus preexist as the Word where the Word was a Divine Spirit being separate from God, who was WITH God at his side?

                #5. Did Jesus preexist as Yahweh HIMSELF where the yet unspoken Word of the IMAGE, that God desired to be, was WITHIN God, which God then SPOKE FORTH to bring into existence?

                Now some church denominations dogmatically demand and teach that to believe in Jesus preexisting is the very FOUNDATION of true Christianity and that if you do NOT believe that Jesus preexisted as God the Son, the second person of the trinity, then you are NOT a TRUE Christian.

               But is this what the word of God truly teaches us that we MUST believe that Jesus preexisted as God the Son, the second person of the trinity, in order to be save. Does the Bible itself teach us in simplicity that we MUST without fail believe that Jesus preexisted in order to be saved?

               Now it is true that this teaching of Jesus preexisting is found in nearly ALL groups of believers, who CLAIM that they are they the ONE and ONLY TRUE church.

               To the Mormons Jesus preexisted as a created spirit being and that he was the brother of Satan. Now from my understanding the Mormons do believe that Jesus died for their sins like every other Christian, but YET in many other areas they do NOT believe the whole word of Almighty God. For example the Mormons believe that Almighty God was at one time a MAN, who then progressed to become a God. So then, the term to preexist, in the mind or thinking of a Mormon does NOT mean to have ALWAYS existed for all eternity past without a beginning. Please read the studies "MORMONISM VERSES BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY" and "IS MORMONISM CHRISTIAN?"

                And to the Jehovah's Witness the term preexist means that Jesus was a created being just prior to the creation of everything else. In other words, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Almighty God Jehovah created Jesus, who then created everything else. Then this spirit being or Michael the archangel called the Word took on the form of a man. They do not believe that Jesus is deity, but rather that Jesus is only the SON OF God. And since they believe that Jesus preexisted as spirit being and that he was the FIRST creation of God, then the preexisting Jesus to them does NOT mean that Jesus has ALWAYS preexisted without a beginning. Now while I personally know some Jehovah's Witnesses and they have told me that they do indeed believe that Jesus dies for their sins, then I myself am not going to judge whether or not that they are saved or not. But I will say that not all their doctrine is SOUND BIBLICAL teaching according to the WHOLE word of God. Nor do I myself believe that the Bible ITSELF teaches us that Jesus created all things.

                The Christadelphians believe that Jesus did NOT preexist as a spirit being or as an angel, but rather Jesus PREEXISTED ONLY as the spoken word of Almighty God, which was brought into existence in the fullness of time. They believe that Jesus was created or born as a human being, who was conceived by the spoken word of Almighty God. They believe that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit at his baptism to receive divine power and then this divine power left when Jesus died on the cross. Christadelpians also believe that man does NOT possess a soul and therefore when a man dies, then the soul itself ALSO dies or ceases to exist. Please read the study “IS THE DOCTRINE OF SOUL SLEEP BIBLICAL?”, which explains the ERROR of Christadelphians on this particular subject of the SOUL of man. Jesus had a SOUL that was not left in hell. And while the SOUL of Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights Jesus was CONSCIOUS because the Bible says that he PREACHED to the spirit or the SOULS or spirits in prison. Please read the study “WHAT AND WHERE IS PARADISE?” for a deeper understanding that the Old Testament saints are now in heaven awaiting their resurrection to receive their glorified immortal bodies of flesh and bone just like Jesus has now.

                The Catholic church as well as many Protestant church denominations believe that Jesus not only preexisted, but that Jesus ETERNALLY preexisted as the SON OF God having absolutely NO BEGINNING or ending and therefore Jesus, the SON OF God, being God the SON, the SECOND person of the TRINITY was CO ETERNAL and CO EQUAL with Almighty God the FATHER. The terms co eternal and co equal mean that God the Son has always been and ever shall be God the Son who has always been and ever shall be equal in ever way with God the Father, where neither is less than nor grater than the other.

              Now both the doctrine of the trinity, and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus teach that Jesus, as the Son of God, or as God the Son, the second person of the trinity, has always existed and therefore is without beginning nor ending being CO ETERNAL with Almighty God the FATHER and God the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Roman Catholic church and many Protestant churches as well teach the doctrine of the trinity, and the deity of Jesus, which again teaches that God SON has ALWAYS preexisted from all eternity as the second person of the trinity and therefore was WITHOUT beginning the same as God the Father. 

               These two doctrines also teach that Jesus is God the Son INCARNATE, which means that Jesus was, is, and ever shall be FULLY Almighty God HIMSELF, and that while Jesus was on the earth Jesus was FULLY Almighty God AND fully man at the same time meaning that Jesus has TWO natures, a DIVINE nature and a human nature. Therefore these two doctrines also teach that Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God is CO EQUAL to Almighty God the Father, meaning that Jesus is EQUAL with Almighty God the Father is every way where neither one is less that nor greater than the other.


BUT WHICH TEACHING IS THE TRUTH?


                So then, the question becomes, Which teaching is the truth? OR perhaps none of the above teaches are the truth of the whole word of God and are there other teachings as to HOW Jesus may or may not have preexisted? Again the following are the different teachings that I have found in my research concerning the verses that seem to teach that Jesus preexisted and HOW Jesus preexisted.

                #1. Jesus preexisted as the ETERNAL SON, the second person of the trinity, called God the SON.

                #2. Jesus preexisted as a separate Spirit being called the Word, who eternally existed with God and was God and therefore had NO beginning nor end. Then God made a human body for the Word to dwell among men and was given the name Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of man being fully Almighty God and fully man at the same time.

                #3. Jesus preexisted as the Word that was with the God and was a God. Or more precisely the WORD was WITHIN God as God's THOUGHTS and PLANS. And then this Word was SPOKEN forth by Almighty God as PROPHECY to one day be made flesh and dwell among men, given the name Jesus, and called the Son of God and the Son of man whom Almighty God the Father DWELT IN to empower his Son to do the works that he sent him to do.

                #4. Jesus preexisted as a created ANGEL. Then this Angel of the Lord became flesh to become the Son of God, but was NOT Almighty God himself. Some teach that Lucifer or Satan was the brother of this Archangel of the Lord named Michael.

                # 5. Jesus always preexisted as the eternal Father himself, who then manifested himself to become the Son of Almighty God the Father where Jesus the Son was FULLY Almighty God and fully man at the same time. This belief is called Modalism or oneness.

                #6. Now there may be other teachings that fit in one of the categories above, but may vary a little is some way. If you, the reader and seeker of the truth have heard of a different teaching that you personally believe is a more SOUND BIBLICAL teaching than any of the above teachings please let me know and I will include it in this study. Number 7 is what I myself have come to believe that the whole word of God teaches.

                #7. I myself believe that Jesus preexisted as Yahweh himself, but more precisely Jesus preexisted as an IMAGE that Yahweh had WITHIN himself to one day have a Son. I believe that Yahweh himself literally becomes what he speaks forth into existence by his spoken word which came forth out from his mouth.  I believe that the spoken word which came forth out from the mouth of God first became the Son of MAN, who was then given the name Jesus, whom God anointed to accomplish the task God gave to Jesus the Son of MAN to accomplish. Then AFTER Jesus became obedient unto death on the cross the Father highly exalted the Son of MAN to become the the eternal divine Son of God to become a God, or to become deity to rule FOR Yahweh at his God and Father's right hand.

                We will now discuss some of the above mentioned teachings of the preexisting Jesus in more detail to see which one is the most sound Biblical teaching according to the WHOLE word of God.

                Now the widely taught main stream Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity states that all three persons in the ONE God together make up the ONE God where they are all three together called God referring to the ONE TRUE and ONLY Almighty God. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, who are said to be the ONE eternal Godhead and therefore they are all three co-eternal and co-equal with each other according to this doctrine of the trinity. In other words, God the Father IS the Almighty, God the Son IS the Almighty, and God the Holy Spirit IS the Almighty. Not three Almighty Gods, but three separated divine eternal persons in the ONE Almighty God. 

               For the most part in this particular study in God's word we are only going to focus on teaching of the ETERNAL existence of God the SON to see as to whether or not it is a SOUND BIBLICAL teaching that Jesus as the SON of Almighty God has always preexisted as God SON WITHOUT a BEGINNING. So for those interested in what the Bible ITSELF teaches on the subject of whether or not Jesus was CO EQUAL with the Father please read the study "IS JESUS THE ALMIGHTY?" for all the verses that clearly teach us that Jesus was NOT equal with Almighty God the Father.

                You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, ALL of the above mentioned Christian Churches cannot be correct, because they all DISAGREE with each other in what they teach. So the purpose of this study is to find out what the word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible, teaches us. And in order to do this we must be thorough as we examine all the possibilities. Therefore will will be looking at each belief that I myself have been made aware of in my research.

                Please know and understand that the Mormons have their own special Bible as well as two other books that they hold equal to if not greater than the Bible itself. Also know and understand that the Jehovah's Witnesses also have their own Bible that their leaders have translated and as well have the Watch Tower publications that they hold to be sacred to them along with their own translation of the Bible So all of what Jehovah's Witnesses hold as being the ONLY truth is what they refer to as the inspired teaching of the watch tower society. And even the Catholic church holds tradition and church history on the same level as God's word. 

               I say this because I myself will ONLY use the Holy Bible as the source to base the understanding of how Jesus may or may not have preexisted. I may include early church writings as support if they agree with what the WHOLE word of God clearly and plainly teaches, because there were false teachers in the early days of the church as well just like there are today.

                Now in order for the main stream churches of Christianity such as the Roman Catholic church and many Protestant church denominations to continue to support such a belief in a “TRINITY God”, then those church denominations, who teach that Almighty God is a trinity God, must prove without a doubt that Jesus, the Messiah, the SON OF Almighty God the Father, who in their mind is God the Son, the second person of the trinity, has always existed for all eternity and never had a BEGINNING.

                Other wise if Jesus cannot be proven without a doubt that he has always existed as the SON OF Almighty God WITHOUT a BEGINNING, then Jesus cannot possibly be proven to be THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God himself, as in, being a SEPARATE person of the ONE Godhead.

                You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, IF SO BE that the SON OF God did indeed have a BEGINNING, any kind of beginning, then the SON OF Almighty God could not possibly be THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, but rather a CREATION OF Almighty God. You see, the TRUTH of the matter is that in order for Jesus to be Almighty God himself during the days of his FLESH, then Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God, would need to be an ETERNAL being as well, who is WITHOUT a BEGINNING nor ENDING just like God the Father and God the Holy Spirit according to the doctrine of the TRINITY.

                In other words, in order for these doctrines of the Roman Catholic church that have passed along to some Protestant churches to be found true, then those who teach these doctrines of the trinity and the deity of Jesus must provide absolute sound Biblical proof from that Holy Bible ALONE, as in, the WHOLE word of God, that does NOT contradict any other part of God's word. What I mean by this is where are the Scriptures that teach us that Jesus had TWO NATURES, one divine and one human at the same time and that it was only his human nature that died on the cross.

                Here is a list of scriptures that are used by those who teach these doctrines to try and prove that Almighty God is a triune God or a trinity God, being three separate Gods, God the Father, God the SON, and God the Holy Spirit, but yet just ONE God in three persons or three divine beings, where each separate divine being of the trinity has always existed for all eternity without beginning nor ending.

                The primary or the main verses used to try and prove the literal preexistence of Jesus as God the SON, the second person of the trinity are found in the gospel of John. However there are a few other additional verses used along with the ones found in the book of John as well. Here are all 19 of the main or primary verses used by those who teach that Jesus PREEXISTED:

                   John 1:1-14,15,30---The Word was God.

         John 3:13---Jesus descended from heaven.

         John 6:38---Jesus came down from heaven.

         John 6:62---Jesus ascended up to where he was before.

         John 8:14---Jesus said I know where I came and where I go.

         John 8:23---I am from above, I am not of this world.

         John 8:58---Before Abraham was, I am.

         John 16:28---I came forth from the Father into the world.

         John 17:5---I go away to him that sent me.

         John 17:24---You loved me before the foundation of the world.

         Philippians 2:6-8---Who was in the form of God.

         Galatians 4:4---In the fullness if time God sent forth his Son.

         Ephesians 3:9-11---Jesus created all things.

         Colossians 1:15-17---Jesus is before all things.

         Hebrews 1:10-12---Proves Jesus is Yahweh himself.

         Hebrews 10:5---You have prepared me a body.

         1 Corinthians 10:4---And the Rock was Christ.

         1 Corinthians 15:47-The second man is the Lord from heaven.

         2 Corinthians 8:9---Though he was rich he became poor.

         Revelation 1:8-10---Jesus is the Almighty.

         Revelation 3:14---Jesus is the beginning of creation of God.


                As you can see, I have some links above that are studies which I have written that devoted to those specific verses. The other verse are covered within those studies or they are covered in other studies I have written on this subject of the doctrine of the trinity, did Jesus have a beginning and "WHEN DID JESUS BECOME GOD'S ETERNAL SON?", which is one of my newest and perhaps most in depth study showing that Jesus did NOT preexist in eternity past as God's SON.

                Now before we actually begin this study in God's word there are TWO very important questions that must be asked:


       QUESTION #1.


         Are these “preexistence” statements LITERAL or NOTIONAL?


         By LITERAL preexistence I mean that Jesus LITERALLY preexisted either as the SON OF Almighty God being God the SON, the second person of the trinity, or that Jesus LITERALLY preexisted as the Word, where the Word was indeed a LITERAL LIVING SEPARATE divine eternal Spirit BEING, who was WITH Almighty God at his SIDE in the beginning, who then created all things.

         And what I mean by NOTIONAL preexistence sometimes called IDEAL preexistence is that these verses used to try and prove that Jesus preexisted are PROPHECY, in that, Almighty God foretold and promised the COMING of the Messiah. 

         In other words, the written and spoken WORD of God are PROPHECIES that Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God was to one day come into existence as THE CHRIST or the Messiah and this WORD has always preexisted in God’s mind or PLAN from all eternity past. But even the WORD itself had a BEGINNING, in that, the WORD needed to be BROUGHT FORTH FROM OUT of  the mouth of Almighty God before God's IMAGES, his thoughts, his plans would be brought forth into a LITERAL EXISTENCE where before they only existed WITHIN the MIND and PLAN of God as the IMAGE of his THOUGHTS to one day bring forth into existence. 

             Simply put, NOTIONAL or IDEAL preexistence means that ONLY Yahweh, Almighty God HIMSELF has always existed WITHOUT beginning and without and end, and that his spoken word, and Jesus the SON OF Almighty God BOTH had a BEGINNING where Almighty God is the SOURCE of their ORIGIN or beginning. To say this another way Yahweh SPOKE forth his word that was WITHING himself and then Yahweh's spoken SAYING or spoken word became the IMAGE that was WITHIN Yahweh as his desire to BE. The spoken SAYING that was WITHIN Yahweh became FLESH.


        QUESTION # 2.


         Next it must be determined that if so be you believe that Jesus has LITERALLY preexisted as the WORD, then have these verses, which are CLAIMED to teach a LITERAL preexistence, been correctly translated and correctly INTERPRETED? Or do these verses simply just IMPLY a LITERAL preexistence?


         What I mean by being correctly INTERPRETED is that whatever INTERPRETATION one concludes for any one verse, then that INTERPRETATION MUST AGREE with the REST of God's word without any contradiction with any other part of the word of TRUTH.

         In other words, ANY INTERPRETATION that is concluded must do more than just IMPLY or SEEM to be saying that Jesus LITERALLY preexisted as the WORD being a LITERALLY SECOND DIVINE Spirit being who was WITH Almighty God at his side, and that the WORD himself did NOT have a BEGINNING, then that interpretation must not contradict any other part of God's word.


         Now in addition to the main or primary verses stated above that are used to try and prove that Jesus has preexisted as the ETERNAL SON OF Almighty God there are also other verses as well:

         Genesis 1:26,27

         Isaiah 7:14

         Daniel 7:13,14

         Proverbs 8:22

         Micah 5:2

         Matthew 23:8-10

         John 14:10-12

         Acts 20:28

         Romans 1:2

         Ephesians 3:9-11

         Ephesians 4:8,9

         1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

         Hebrews 11:26

         1 Peter 1:10,11 and

         Jude 9 for those who believe Jesus was Michael the archangel.


         Now if so be that you do believe that Jesus preexisted as an ANGEL like the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons, then there are all the ANGEL of the Lord verses, which you can find simply by doing a word search in any Bible concordance. I have not listed these verses in this particular study. I do have other studies that deal with some of these questionable verses like “THE THREE MEN WHO APPEARED TO ABRAHAM?” where the question has been asked, "Was one of these men or angels the preexisting Jesus? But for now let us begin this study in God's word to see what the whole word of God teaches as to HOW Jesus preexisted.


         So then, let us begin this study in God;s word by first examining Hebrews 10:5 where Jesus says to Almighty God the Father, you have prepared me a body.


                VERSE #1.

DOES HEBREWS 10:5


A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME”


PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?

  

         Now when I ask this same question in each of these separate yet connected studies, “Does “the verse” PROVE that Jesus preexisted?”, what I mean by Jesus preexisting is; does that particular verse prove without a doubt that Jesus preexisted as the SON OF Almighty God the Father, being God the SON, the second divine being of the TRINITY God, who has ALWAYS existed WITH God the Father and therefore is the ETERNAL SON of God WITHOUT ever having a BEGINNING nor ENDING?

         As I have already said I believe that the Bible itself teaches us that Jesus preexisted as the ONE God Yahweh HIMSELF, but more precisely preexisted as the IMAGE Yahweh had WITHIN himself to one day bring forth into existence. To say this another way, Jesus only preexisted WITHIN the MIND of God as Yahweh's thoughts and plans to one day bring forth his Son into existence. Take a moment to consider God doing NEW THINGS that he has never done before and that one of these NEW things was God bringing forth into existence his SON Jesus.

         Please read Isaiah 42:1-9 which is a PROPHECY or Jesus the coming Messiah.

         " Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
          2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
          3.  A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 

          4.  He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
          5.  Thus says God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
          6.  I the LORD have called YOU in righteousness, and will hold YOUR hand, and will keep YOU, and give YOU for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
          7.  To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
          8.  I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
          9.  Behold, the former things are come to pass, and NEW THINGS do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them."
 

         Now one of the FORMER things that there was only ONE God, which Yahweh would come to pass or come to an end. There was no other God or Gods in the OLD Testament that ruled FOR Yahweh, as in, being second in command having being given ALL power and authority like Yahweh gave to Jesus. To say this another way God is prophesying of doing NEW THINGS and one of those NEW things was to have a SON to INHERIT the worlds to come. Once you see that Jesus is NOT the ALMIGHTY who alone is the FATHER, then it will be easier to see that Jesus did indeed have a beginning and was NOT co eternal with the Father. So then the question becomes WHEN did Jesus becomes God's ETERNAL Son?

          I am pretty sure from my research that most ALL Christians believe that Jesus PREEXISTED is some way. But the main purpose of this study is to determine HOW the word of TRUTH, the WHOLE word of God teaches us that Jesus PREEXISTED?


         Here is the first verse with which we will begin this study in God's word to determine HOW Jesus PREEXISTED?

         Hebrews 10:5


       “Wherefore when he comes into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:”


         Some Christians dogmatically demand that this verse means without fail that Jesus, as the SON OF Almighty God the Father, has always for all eternity PREEXISTED with Almighty God as the second person or a second divine being WITH God, and this second person they call the DIVINE SON OF God, who then descended down from heaven to DWELL in a human body that God PREPARED for his DIVINE SON to be CLOTHED upon with humanity and therefore REMAIN to be FULLY Almighty God and fully a man at the same time having TWO natures.

         Now other Christians INTERPRET this verse to mean that Almighty God the Father prepared his already preexisting Son Jesus a HUMAN BODY of flesh BORN of the virgin Mary, and then Jesus entered into the fetus in Mary's womb to be born a human, who was again a God/man being FULLY Almighty God and fully a man at the same time having TWO natures.

         And yet other Christians say, NO, Jesus did NOT preexist as God's SON, but rather Jesus preexisted as the Word, which was WITH God as a second DIVINE SPIRIT being, whom God sent down from heaven to the earth and then this DIVINE ETERNAL Being called the Word entered into the womb of Mary to be born as the Son of man, but yet again this DIVINE Word REMAINED to be FULLY ALMIGHTY God while at the same time being fully man as well having TWO natures.

         So then, in all these INTERPRETATIONS thus far that I have listed above we see one COMMON belief among them all, which is that Jesus LITERALLY preexisted WITH God as a SECOND SEPARATE ETERNAL DIVINE Spirit BEING. Some say that this second divine being was the Word. Others say that he was the SON of God. Some say that the Word and the Son had a BEGINNING. Others say that only the SON needed to have a beginning, because the SON is BEGOTTEN or BORN so Jesus could have only preexisted as the SPIRIT being called the Word. Others say NO and that the SON has always existed without ever having a beginning.

         But no matter HOW they say that Jesus LITERALLY preexisted they ALL agree and make the SAME CLAIM that when he, the Word, or he, the SON OF God, was made flesh and dwelt among men and was given the name Jesus that Jesus REMAINED to be FULLY ALMIGHTY God in the flesh being FULLY ALMIGHTY God and fully a human being at the same time having TWO natures and TWO wills. 

         In other words, ALL these above INTERPRETATIONS dogmatically demand that the BODY that God PREPARED for his Word or for his SON was a HUMAN BODY of FLESH and blood that the Word, or the SON would inhabit or be clothed upon or be made to become, but yet REMAIN fully DIVINE at the SAME time having TWO natures and that this is the ONLY way that this verse can be INTERPRETED.


         Now AFTER being TAUGHT that this INTERPRETATION is without fail the ONLY possible meaning of his verse for so long, I agree and can see why that this verse SEEMS to be saying that at the TIME Jesus came into the world Almighty God prepared a human body of flesh for an already preexisting DIVINE spirit being whether that SECOND Spirit being is called the Word or where this SECOND Spirit being is called the SON OF Almighty God the Father.

         But is this truly what the WHOLE word of God teaches us? You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, upon taking a closer look at the CONTEXT of this verse I myself clearly see that this verse is speaking of Almighty God NOT being PLEASED with the Old Testament animal sacrifices that were offered over and over year after year.

         In other words, to ME, it is quite clear that the BODY God prepared for his Son Jesus is his NEW divine immortal glorified spiritual body of flesh and bone. And that it was God PLAN all along to reward his only BEGOTTEN SON Jesus with the divine nature of IMMORTALITY. This was the JOY set before Jesus to endure the cross. 

        But BODY that God prepared for Jesus would be given to him only AFTER the WORD, the logos, the SPOKEN WORD of God, was sent down from heaven with the angel Gabriel to be SPOKEN FORTH to the virgin Mary. And then when Mary AGREED to the SPOKEN WORD of God, then the WORD, as God's SEED, his QUICKENING SPIRIT, or living word having life in itself made alive the spoken IMAGE of God to grow in the womb of Mary to be BORN or BEGOTTEN BY Almighty God the Father who is the SOURCE of the ORIGIN or source of the BEGINNING of the Son of MAN being brought into existence, given the name Jesus, and who would then be called the SON OF God where the SON had never existed before EXCEPT in the mind and the PLAN of Almighty God to one day BEGET his only BEGOTTEN SON from the DEAD to become his ETERNAL DIVINE SON.

         So then, in ONE sense God did prepare or make a human body by his spoken WORD, but this is NOT the ONLY BODY that God PREPARED for his SON Jesus. Please keep in mind the CONTEXT of this verse in question, which is speaking of SACRIFICES.

         Then in the fullness of the time, when Jesus, the only or uniquely BEGOTTEN SON OF MAN having NO earthly father, grew to manhood, then God sent down his OWN eternal Holy Spirit to DWELL IN his SON Jesus to EMPOWER his SON to become obedient do all the will of HIS God and Father even to suffer and die a cruel and brutal death on the cross for the sins of the whole world.

         So then after God ANOINTED his Son Jesus with power from on high where Almighty God the Father, who is the eternal Spirit, began to DWELL IN Jesus, then God sent his SON Jesus OUT INTO the world to preach the gospel and do all the will of the Father ending with Jesus being crucified on the cross for the sins of the whole world.

         And then Almighty God raised his SON from the dead and GAVE to the Son of MAN a NEW GLORIFIED IMMORTAL BODY that he had PREPARED for his SON Jesus even before that foundation of the world in his mind and plan to one day have a Son to SHARE his glory and his kingdom. This is what brought Yahweh pleasure.


         Once again, after seeing and understanding the CONTEXT, which clearly shows us that the reason that the uniquely begotten Son of MAN came into the world was to be a PLEASING sacrifice that would END all sacrifices for sin once and for all time, then the BODY that was PREPARED for Jesus was his NEW GLORIFIED IMMORTAL SPIRITUAL BODY of flesh and bone that was NOT a corruptible body of flesh that God prepared for a LITERAL preexisting Son as some have falsely concluded that this verse means.

         In other words, Almighty God NO LONGER ACCEPTED the animal sacrifices, BUT he did ACCEPT the sacrifice that his Son Jesus being the Son of MAN made as an ATONEMENT for the sins of the whole world. The Lamb was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world but we al know and agree that Jesus was not LITERALLY slain BEFORE mankind was ever created.

         God wanted a RIGHTEOUS Son who would NOT rebel against him. A Son he could TRUST to rule FOR him. And God was so pleased with his beloved Son to become obedient even unto death on the cross that he rewarded his Son with the divine nature of IMMORTALITY. To say this another way, the BODY that was PREPARED for Jesus was an IMMORTAL BODY as a REWARD for his SON Jesus doing ALL the will of his God and Father. This was the JOY set before Jesus to endure the cross, which Hebrews 12:2 teaches us.

       "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR the JOY that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

         You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Greek word that is TRANSLATED as “PREPARED” is “KATARTIZO”, which means TO RESTORE, put in order, to mend, to make complete, to prepare, to ORDAIN, perfect and to make perfect. And the ONLY time this Greek word is TRANSLATED as prepared is in this one verse of Hebrews 10:5.

         So all you have to do is be HONEST with yourself to admit that the HUMAN body that some CLAIM to be the body that God prepared for his already LITERAL preexisting Son Jesus was NOT a PERFECT body. In other words, the full meaning of this Greek word does NOT fit with a PERISHABLE HUMAN BODY of mere FLESH as Jesus had during the days of his FLESH as the body God prepared for Jesus. But the meaning of this word does indeed fit the human body of Jesus being CHANGED and GLORIFIED to be made PERFECT and IMMORTAL. 

         So again one more time, Hebrews 10:5 is speaking of the new GLORIFIED IMMORTAL BODY that God PREPARED or MADE PERFECT for his SON Jesus.

         Also please take note of the conjunction BUT, which also means YET, as in, yet a future preparing of a BETTER body. A body that is MADE PERFECT just like the Greek word “KATARTIZO” means. In other words, the CONTEXT of this verse teaches us that with the animals sacrifices God was NOT PLEASED. To say this another way, Jesus was simply saying, “BUT you O God will be or are SATISFIED with me as your sacrifice and therefore you have PREPARED ME a BODY, an IMMORTAL body!” Please keep in mind that Jesus ENDURED the cross, BECAUSE of the JOY that was SET BEFORE him.

         Hebrews 12:1-4


       “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

       2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR (or BECAUSE OF) the JOY that was SET BEFORE him ENDURED the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

       3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest you be wearied and faint in your minds.

       4. You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.”


         Jesus knew that the scriptures spoke of him. And the very CONTEXT of Hebrews 10:5 teaches us in verse 7 that Jesus came as prophesied in the Scriptures.

         Hebrews 10:7

      "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of ME,) to do YOUR will, O God."

         Again Jesus, the Son of MAN, knew that the scriptures spoke of him and thus Jesus knew that it was needed for the Son of MAN to suffer and die for the sins of the people. And Jesus knew that he would dwell in the house of the Lord forever AFTER going trough the valley of the shadow of death. But yet he SUFFERED being TEMPTED. Jesus knew of the yet COMING JOY being in the house of God forever with his God and Father so he ENDURED the cross of shame to be that PLEASING and ACCEPTABLE sacrifice for sins that would satisfy his God and Father.

         Please read Isaiah 53:10-12 from the New Living Translation.


       “But it was the LORD'S good PLAN to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs (Jesus knew that the scriptures spoke of HIM. Jesus knew from the scriptures that he would BECOME the father of everlasting life. Jesus knew that Almighty God the Father would COMMIT this authority to give eternal life to his faithful brethren to be joint heirs with him. Praise the Lord!). He will enjoy a long life (speaking of ETERNAL LIFE. Jesus knew that the scripture promised him eternal life for obeying his God and Father to do all his will. In John 5:26,27 we learn that Jesus is GIVEN IMMORTALITY by his God and Father), and the LORD'S PLAN will prosper in his hands. (Jesus knew the PLAN of his God and Father from the scriptures that spoke of HIM. Jesus knew that this was God's PLAN from before the foundation of the world. To ME this is HOW Jesus PREEXISTED. I myself believe that Jesus preexisted only in the MIND and PLAN of Almighty God to ONE DAY bring FORTH a SON who would be his LAMB to redeem mankind back to himself. And as a REWARD God SET this great JOY of partaking of the DIVINE NATURE of IMMORTALITY before his Son Jesus for becoming obedient to endure a cruel death on the cross as the atonement for this sins of the whole world. The word of God teaches us that Jesus was TAUGHT morning by morning and that he INCREASED in wisdom, understanding and favor with God as he grew in physical stature.)

       11. When he (Almighty God the Father) SEES all that is accomplished by his anguish, he (Almighty God the Father) will be SATISFIED. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. 

       12. I will give him the HONORS of one who is mighty and great, BECAUSE he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners.”


         Philippians 2:8-11 teaches us that Jesus was HIGHLY EXALTED for the very reason OF being that good and faithful servant of God to become obedient unto death on the cross. For those of you who have been dogmatically taught that Philippians 2:6 proves that without fail that Jesus preexisted as the SON OF God being God the SON for all eternity and was without beginning and therefore this verse proves doctrine of the trinity I ask you to please be patient. We will get to Philippians 2:6 before this study in God's word is completed. But for now please notice that it was only AFTER Jesus became obedient unto death on the cross that his God and Father HIGHLY EXALTED his SON Jesus to become a God to rule and reign in his Father's kingdom and his Father's right hand on his Father's throne.


       “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

       9. Wherefore (or for this very REASON of becoming obedient to endure the cross) God also has HIGHLY EXALTED him, and given him a name which is above every name:

       10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

       11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”


         So I myself have concluded that the BODY that was prepared for Jesus was his NEW GLORIFIED IMMORTAL BODY of flesh and bone, and therefore for ME, this verse in Hebrews 10:5 where God PREPARED a BODY for Jesus does NOT prove without fail that Jesus preexisted for all eternity without beginning as God the SON, the second person of the so called trinity.

         Please keep in mind that I am NOT saying that Jesus did NOT preexist at all

         But what I am saying is that this particular verse in Hebrews 10:5 does NOT PROVE without fail that Jesus preexisted as GOD the SON, the SECOND PERSON of the Trinity as some dogmatically DEMAND that this is what THIS verse here in Hebrews 10:5 means without fail as those who teach the doctrine of the trinity CLAIM. The purpose of this study is to go through each and every verse ONE at a time to CLOSELY EXAMINE ALL the evidence from both sides to see if that particular verse proves without fail the doctrine of the trinity which teaches that Jesus ETERNALLY existed as GOD the SON for all eternity WITHOUT ever having a BEGINNING.

         So then, let us continue this study in God's word by taking a closer look at the next verse is question that SEEMS to be saying or rather is INTERPRETED to IMPLY that Jesus LITERALLY preexisted as the SON of God for all eternity WITHOUT a BEGINNING.


=======================================================


  VERSE#2.

DOES 2 CORINTHIANS 8:9


THOUGH HE WAS RICH, 

YET FOR YOUR SAKE HE BECAME POOR”


PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?


         Here is somewhat how the argument goes from those who teach that Jesus preexisted without a beginning as God the SON.

         Paul says by the Spirit of God that through Jesus Christ was RICH and he gave it all up for our sake and became POOR. Then they dogmatically demand that this verse proves without fail that Jesus preexisted as God the SON without beginning and without end. They say something like, Now if this does not prove that Jesus preexisted in grandeur and splendor with the glory of the Father BEFORE his being born of the virgin Mary, then WHEN was Jesus EVER RICH? Then they drive this point home by saying something like, Certainly Jesus was not rich while he was on the earth! He was born in a borrowed stable, crossed the Sea of Galilee in a borrowed boat, fed the multitudes with borrowed food, rode into Jerusalem on a borrowed beast, ate His last meal in a borrowed room and finally was buried in a borrowed tomb. Jesus once said in Luke 9:58 that,


       “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head”.


         Now again I agree that in just hearing ONE SIDE of this highly controversial subject this verse does SEEM to be saying that Jesus gave up the riches of heaven to become a poor human being.

         But is this truly what this verse teaches us in the light of the whole word of God?

         So then, the questions become what does RICH truly mean, and what does the Bible mean by being POOR?            

         And was Jesus ever rich while he was ON the earth?

         First let us read 2 Corinthians 8:9 to refresh your memory as to ALL this verse is saying.


       “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was RICH, yet for your sake he became POOR, that you THROUGH his POVERTY might be RICH.”


         This very verse gives us a clue as to what the Bible means by Jesus becoming POOR and how is being POOR on the earth is FOR OUR SAKE?           

          According to the ARGUMENT to try and prove the doctrine of the trinity they claim that the POVERTY of Jesus is what causes US to be RICH, because Jesus had no place to lay his head and that he was buried in a borrowed tomb.  But just being POOR FINANCIALLY does NOT cause us to be RICH. So then, being POOR is definitely NOT speaking of being poor FINANCIALLY, because again Jesus being poor financially or being rich financially does NOT help US become rich with God.

         So again, ask yourself the question, How does Jesus being POOR benefit US to make US RICH?

         Well to me this has NOTHING to do with Jesus being FINANCIALLY poor, but has EVERYTHING to do with Jesus being poor in SPIRIT having a CONTRITE heart that is HUMBLE and MEEK that esteems others better than himself. In other words, Jesus made himself poor in SPIRIT by HUMBLING himself during his MINISTRY to preach the gospel to the poor, the MEEK an lowly, and to humble himself to lay down his like for US to make us rich toward God.

          Now before we get into this study in God's as to what the Bible teaches us about being poor in SPIRIT by humbling himself, I would like to bring a few points to your attention about those who argue that Jesus, Mary and Joseph were POOR, because to ME I personally do NOT see this being taught in the word of God. Particularly in such a way that some DOGMATICALLY DEMAND without fail that Jesus, Mary, and Joseph were so poor they could not even afford to offer a lamb for a sacrifice to God and had to offer two turtles dove instead. First of all the Bible does NOT specifically SAY WHAT Mary and Joseph offered, but we will discuss that point when we get to it. Here are 10 different points that I want to bring out that persuades me to believe that Jesus, Mary and Joseph were NOT so poor as some CLAIM.


         POINT #1. 

         First of ANY verse or argument used AFTER Jesus began his ministry CANNOT be counted as a TRUE argument to try and prove that Jesus was ALREADY POOR and therefore must have given up heaven to become poor, because if so be that Jesus was indeed RICH on earth BEFORE he began his ministry, then it is proven that Jesus did indeed give up all the comforts of earthly riches to BECOME POOR for the sake of the gospel. So then all the so called BORROWED boat to crossed the Sea of Galilee, the borrowed fish and bread to feed the multitudes, the borrowed donkey to ride into Jerusalem, the borrowed room to eat last supper, and no place to lay his head were ALL by CHOICE that Jesus himself made to BECOME poor fro the sake of the gospel and therefore prove NOTHING in the way that Jesus was ALWAYS POOR from birth and that his parents were poor. In other words, the only arguments left for those that dogmatically demand that Jesus Mary and Joseph were “DIRT POOR”, so to speak, is that they CLAIM that Mary and Joseph has to stay in a so called BORROWED stable and Jesus had to be buried in what the CLAIM was a the borrowed tomb, which again are only ASSUMED or INTERPRETED to be borrowed.


         POINT #2. 

         Please consider the HISTORICAL FACT written in Jewish literature as well as the BIBLICAL linage of both Mary and Joseph in the line of King David.


        There is not one woman in the history of the world more known, loved, revered, respected and honored than Mary, the mother of Jesus. Known in her native land as PRINCESS MIRIAM, she is today revered by two great religions; Christianity and Islam. In her native Jewish land, the life and ministry of her Son is the most studied of all historical and religious literature by the Jewish rabbanim of the first century Jewish temple culture.

         In spite of some defensive aspersions of some Jews concerning her Son, Yehoshua (Jesus), Miriam is held in respect as the ideal mother, who stands by her family even in the most intense moments of social rejection and sorrow.

         The family of Joseph, the foster father of Jesus, came from a family of royal Davidian princes, all of whom carried the hidden dream of being the Promised One, or the father of the Promised One who would sit on the seat of their ancestral forefather, King David. In contrast, Mary’s family lived in the aura of the majesty and beauty of the temple culture of the Jews in Jerusalem. Joseph’s father flirted with the royalty from Egypt, to Rome, and to Babylon, from Davidian, Maccabean to Herodian, yet he knew that to capture the “hidden” love and devotion of the Jewish population, any ruler had to carry the mantle and the genetic birthright of King David.

         Miriam (or MARY the mother of Jesus) was a Davidian princess, originally from the non-royal bloodlines of the House of Nathan, the eldest son of Queen Bathsheba, the love of King David’s life. Yet, four hundred years later, the rare fusion of bloodlines occurred when Princess Tamar, the daughter of the Crown Prince Yohanan, was killed in battle with his beloved father, King Josiah, when they sought to hinder the imperial seeking forces of Pharaoh Necho III Wehemibre who was heading north to defend Assyria against the rising imperial power of Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon.

         Tamar, a princess of the House of Solomon was betrothed as a child to a Prince Neriah, a prince of the non-royal line of the House of Nathan. He was the 21st in descent from King David. This was a marriage made in heaven, for unbeknown to the Jewish royalty that was crawling with royal Davidian princes, they could never imagine that all would be killed, exiled, executed, assassinated, or died premature deaths until the entire royal bloodline of King Solomon was threatened with extinction.

         With the LEGAL royal bloodlines of the House of Solomon, now imbedded with the non-royal bloodlines of the House of Nathan, these young princes were recognized as non-royal heirs and thereby not a threat to the Babylonian throne of King Nebuchadnezzar. The God of Israel had a protecting hand over David’s royal bloodline.


         POINT #3. 

         Mary and Joseph did indeed have money to PAY for the room at the Inn, BUT there was NO more ROOMS to be rented. It was NOT because Mary and Joseph were POOR that Jesus was born in a stable, but rather there was NO other place AVAILABLE in the inn to rent, so to me the inn keeper rented the stable to Mary and Joseph. Please read Luke 2:1-7.


       “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be TAXED.

       2. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

       3. And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

       4. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (BECAUSE he was of the house and lineage of David:)

       5. To be TAXED with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. 

       6. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

       7. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes (this term “swaddling clothe” speaks of TIGHTLY wrapping a baby as mothers do today in swaddling blankets and has NOTHING to do with wrapping Jesus is so called “RAGS” because they were so dirt poor that all they had were rags to keep the baby warm as many of us have been INCORRECTLY taught), and laid him in a manger; BECAUSE there was NO ROOM for them IN the inn.”


         Now considering this major world wide event of a census taking or the collecting of TAXES where everyone had to TRAVEL to their home town this would be the busiest and most PROFITABLE time ever for any BUSINESS men such as the INN keeper, who to me undoubtedly CHARGED Mary and Joseph to stay in the stable. What shrewd Jewish business man would GIVE any lodging away for FREE? Keep in mind that this historical event would be liken to the world fair or the Olympics where people come from all over to one place and every hotel is sold out so ANY available space becomes PRIME property to demand a high price. Just MY opinion, but so also is the ASSUMPTION that Mary and Joseph were dirt POOR.


         POINT # 4. 

         The wise men brought EXTREMELY VALUABLE GIFTS fit for a KING to the child Jesus. These GIFTS were for their long awaited coming King that was prophesied to come, so there should be no doubt that the treasures these wise men brought to the King were NOT mere worthless trinkets. So then, what happened to all this extreme WEALTH that was GIVEN to Jesus at his birth?

         Please read Matthew 2:1-12.


       “Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

       2. Saying, Where is he that is born KING of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

       3. When Herod the king had heard these things, he was TROUBLED, and all Jerusalem WITH him.

       4. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

       5. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

       6. And you Bethlehem, in the land of Judea, are not the least among the princes of Judea: for out of you shall come a Governor, that shall RULE my people Israel.

       7. Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

       8. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; (Jesus was most likely approaching the age of two around this time, because the Bible teaches us that Herod had all the male children two years old and younger killed fearing his own throne.) and when you have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

       9. When they had heard the king, they departed ; and, lo , the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was .

       10. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

       11. And when they were come into the HOUSE, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their TREASURES, they presented unto him GIFTS; GOLD, and FRANKINCENSE, and MYRRH.

       12. And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.”


         So then, it has been almost two years now and Mary, Joseph, and the young toddler Jesus are living in a HOUSE. Again living is a HOUSE does not prove without a doubt that Mary and Joseph are RICH, but at the same time it does NOT prove that they are dirt poor either. The main point that I want you to notice is that these wise men from the east brought GIFTS that were befitting TREASURES given to a KING. So the question becomes what happened to all this extreme WEALTH? Some may argue that I am blowing things out of proportion, but considering the ROYAL linage of BOTH Mary and Joseph along with these TREASURES of the wise men opened up and given to the KING of the Jews, then I myself see Jesus, Mary, and Joseph to be quite wealthy.


         POINT #5. 

         Joseph took his family to Egypt to stay until the threat of their son being killed had pasted. So the question now becomes HOW did they AFFORD to travel to Egypt for this extended stay IF SO BE they were so wretchedly poor?


         Jewish history teaches us the following;


         In the days surrounding the birth of Jesus, it was not safe to be recognized or be known as a descendant of the House of David. The Davidian princes were hunted by the Romans, and were despised by the jealous Jewish temple leadership, who were Zadokian cousins presiding as high priests. The ruler of Judea was Herod the Great who at his best, sought to manipulate, or at the least destroy every Zadokian priest that allied himself to Davidian princes. King Herod also targeted every Prince of Israel, who was of the ROYAL House of David, and heirs to the throne of David.


         Please continue to read the rest of Matthew chapter 2.

         Matthew 2:13-23.


      “13. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be you there until I bring you word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

       14. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

       15. And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

       16. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. (this verse teaches us that Jesus was most likely around two years old by the time the wise men came to worship the prophesied coming king)

       17. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,

       18. In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

       19. But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

       20. Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

       21. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

       22. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: 

       23. And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.”



         My Point is this, what poor family can just pick up and leave at the drop of a hat, so to speak, and stay in a distant land until God told them it was safe to return? Perhaps they used the gifts that the wise men gave the young child Jesus to pay for their travel and long stay in Egypt. Or perhaps Mary and Joseph were indeed already RICH considering their ROYAL linage and inherited family WEALTH and they used their own money to fund their refuge in Egypt. Or perhaps Jesus' EXTREMELY RICH GREAT UNCLE Joseph of Arimathea who furnished the tomb for his great nephew Jesus also financed their journey and lodging in Egypt. The point is they HAD the MONEY to finance their journey to Egypt and pay for the room in the Inn had there been a room available.


         POINT #6. 

         The TOMB was given to Jesus by his great UNCLE, which according to Jewish law or custom was the families responsibility. Also history as well as the Bible teaches us that Joseph of Arimathea ADOPTED Jesus as his son. In other words, the so called BORROWED tomb actually belonged to the FAMILY of Jesus and therefore proves that the FAMILY of Jesus was QUITE WEALTHY after all. Again please consider the historical facts from Jewish literature concerning Joseph or Arimathea who ADOPTED Jesus as his own SON.

         Here we are reaching into the New Testament history. Here we meet, the “RICH Man of Jerusalem”, the youngest GREAT UNCLE of Jesus, who was a member of the Roman Provincial Council headed by the Roman Procurator Pontius Pilate. He was also a member of the Great Sanhedrin as the Jewish Elder, who represented the hereditarial “Seat of King David” on the council, and a Roman Decurion, a miner of strategic metals for the Roman Empire in the tin, antimony, and lead mines along the Cornwall coast of southwestern Great Britain.

         Though quickly appearing in the Gospel testimony as the family representative that went to the Procurator Pilate to claim the body of Yehoshua (Jesus), his power and authority all throughout the land of Judea protected the family of Jesus, and the Jewish followers of the Hebrew Nazarene Ecclesia, his last mission was back in Wales and Britain, where he became the “Apostle to the British” and the founder of the British Culdee Ecclesia.

         Yet, what this RICH man of Jerusalem has been really known best in history was for giving to his nephew the new stone carved “FAMILY” tomb in which to lay the lifeless body of Yehoshua, thereby incurring the wrath of the temple leadership and many members of the Sanhedrin who wanted to dispose of the body like a common criminal, by either burying it in the “potter’s field” or throwing it in the trash heaps outside the gates of the city.

         From the historical testimony of the New Testament Gospels, this “rich man of Jerusalem” had only an altruistic interest in helping the family of the young Jewish rabbi, Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus the son of Joseph). YET, the genealogical testimony depicts a LARGER and MORE dynamic involvement of the ancestors and FAMILY of Jesus. Joseph was NOT a bystander, who offered to help the family of a man, he believed to be the messiah. Joseph was the PATERNAL UNCLE Yehoshua, who had the LEGAL and MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to take the body of any deceased FAMILY MEMBER and give it a proper burial.


         Also Joseph of Arimathea being the great uncle became the legal guardian of Jesus. Please read Luke 3:23.


       “And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,”


          The phrase “as was supposed” carries the meaning of according to custom, or to do by law. Some Bible scholars say that this means that Joseph of Arimathea adopted Jesus.

          Plain and simple the FAMILY of Jesus was EXTREMELY WEALTHY. So the TRUTH of the matter Jesus did indeed GIVE UP EARTHLY RICHES to become POOR for our sake as the Bible clearly and plainly teaches us along with Jewish historical facts.


         Now some may still not agree and want to argue that Mary and Joseph were POOR, because they only brought a pair of young

         But what does the Bible ACTUALLY say.

         Please read Luke 2:22-24.


       “And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

       23. (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

       24. And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”


         POINT # 7.

         Please notice that the Bible does NOT ACTUALLY tell us WHAT Mary and Joseph offered. In other words it is only ASSUMED that Mary and Joseph offered EITHER two turtledove OR two young pigeons because this is the ONLY PART of the Old Testament law that Luke quoted. There are many times where a writer of the New testament quotes ONLY PART of a verse or passage of scripture, but the INTENT is clear that the writer in truth really wanted to convey to the reader the WHOLE passage of scripture.

         Now let us read Leviticus 12:7,8 where we understand MORE of what the law actually says, but please keep in mind that this writer is NOT QUOTING the WHOLE passage of scripture EITHER. It is up to YOU the reader to look up and read the ENTIRE passage of scripture if you desire to know ALL that is says.


       “And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled , for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the FIRST YEAR for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:

       7. Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.

       8. And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”


         Those who teach that Mary and Joseph are POOR dogmatically demand that without fail that the phrase And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb,”means that Mary and Joseph were POOR, because they ONLY offered two turtledoves or two pigeons and they did NOT offer a LAMB.

         Again the New Testament simply states ONLY PART of the Old Testament law and ALSO does NOT ACTUALLY say WHAT Mary and Joseph offered. But let us ASSUME that Mary and Joseph did indeed offer ONLY two turtledoves or two young pigeons as many Christians conclude that is what Luke is telling us SIMPLY because he ONLY quotes PART of the Old Testament law. This still does NOT prove without fail that Mary and Joseph were so dirt poor that they could not afford to offer a LAMB to God.

         You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, the phrase And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb,” LITERALLY reads as follows:


       “and if not she find that hand of her sufficient of flocking”


         In other words, God requires a young lamb of the FIRST YEAR. So therefore if she does not find a sufficient lamb of the FIRST YEAR among her flock, THEN she shall offer TWO turtledoves INSTEAD of just ONE turtledove with a lamb, or she shall offer TWO young pigeons INSTEAD of just ONE young pigeon with a lamb. 

        That is to say, this phrase And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb,” has NOTHING whatsoever to Mary and Joseph being POOR.

         You see, the QUALIFICATION for being POOR is shown to us in Leviticus chapter 14, verse 10 and verses 21 and 22.


      “10. And on the eighth day he shall take TWO he lambs without blemish, AND ONE ewe lamb of the FIRST year without blemish, AND three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil....

       21. And IF HE BE POOR, and cannot get so much; then he shall take ONE lamb for a trespass offering to be waved, to make an atonement for him, and one tenth deal of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering, and a log of oil;

       22. AND two turtledoves, OR two young pigeons, such as he is able to get; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering.”


         So then, IF SO BE that Mary and Joseph were truly poor as some Christians CLAIM, then according to Leviticus 14 a POOR person STILL must offer a LAMB of the FIRST year that is without blemish. Now some may say but what if they could not afford even one lamb? If this were the case I am sure God would lay upon someones heart who could afford to give someone so poor one of their lambs if so be God truly required such a sacrifice. To the extremely rich it would not be much of a SACRIFICE for them financially would it? The point is that the Bible itself does NOT ACTUALLY say WHAT Mary and Joseph offered.

         This is why I myself conclude that Luke ONLY quoted PART of the Old Testament law with the INTENDED meaning of the WHOLE law already being UNDERSTOOD by the Jewish readers.

          Please keep in mind that the two passages of scripture in the Old Testament are completely different wording in the original Hebrew and therefore it would be quite a stretch to dogmatically demand that the phrase And if she BE NOT ABLE to BRING a lamb,” mean without fail that Mary and Joseph were so poor that they could not afford to offer a lamb to God seeing that a leper who would truly be far poorer than even the poorest of the poor is still required to offer a LAMB of the FIRST YEAR along with the two turtle doves or the two young pigeons as well.

         So clearly to ME the New Testament writer INTENDED for the reader to UNDERSTAND that Old Testament law ALREADY so he only quoted PART of the law. Again the Bible simply does not say WHAT Mary and Joseph ACTUALLY offered, but rather Luke just quotes only PART of the ALREADY UNDERSTOOD law of the Old Testament.

           

                POINT #8.

         Now even if you still do not agree that the family of Jesus was extremely rich you should agree that the Bible APPEARS to lead us to believe that Joseph had DIED sometime after Jesus was lost for three days at the age of twelve. This would explain WHY Joseph of Arimathea ADOPTED Jesus and became the legal guardian of Mary and Jesus. This also means that Jesus took over deceased father's business and was still the legal heir to what ever his earthly inheritance would have been IF SO BE that Jesus did not give it all up to BECOME POOR for our sake.

         

         POINT #9.

         You see one can be RICH financially whether another person QUALIFIES that person as being RICH in THEIR OWN eyes. So no matter WHAT earthly FINANCIAL wealth that Jesus gave up, the mere FACT of just leaving home and his mother behind to go preach the gospel that was STILL being giving up RICHES to Jesus. In other words, ANY thing that you personally consider for yourself to be rich even if others do not consider you to be rich and you give it up, then you BECOME POOR in SPIRIT.

         

         POINT #10.

         So the TRUTH of the matter is that even is Jesus could be proven without a doubt that he was the POOREST man on the face of the earth and had absolutely NO FINANCIAL WEALTH as some CLAIM, Jesus still became POOR in SPIRIT by giving up what ever he did have that was important to HIM. Some consider their FAMILY their GREATEST TREASURE of ALL. And we know that Jesus left home to travel around and preach the gospel. Jesus BECAME POOR in this way be his OWN CHOICE to have no where to lay his head when he left home to do his Father's WILL.

         Jesus said in Matthew 5:3 that the poor in SPIRIT shall be blessed and theirs shall be the kingdom of heaven.


       “Blessed are the poor in SPIRIT: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”


         This is what I personally believe that the verse in question truly means, because we can all become poor in SPIRIT and be RICH in GOD. Jesus was TEACHING us that no matter what we give up for God we become SPIRITUALLY rich because we have willing become poor is SPIRIT. Some times we commit every thing we have and every thing we are to God and say USE me God for your glory, and God lets us keep our earthly treasures, because he knows our hearts and that these earthly goods do NOT OWN us. But at other times even the very poor in man;s eyes are asked to give up what little they do have according to others, but in the eyes of the poor that little is their very LIVING. Jesus said of the widow woman who gave two pennies that she gave MORE that all the rest who gave out of their INCREASE, because she gave what she NEEDED to LIVE.

         The cross reference in my Bible of Matthew 5:3 referred me back to Isaiah 66:2, which teaches us that what Jesus did ON the earth in the days of his flesh is HOW he made himself POOR in SPIRIT.

         Isaiah 66:1,2.


       “Thus says the LORD (speaking of Almighty God YHWH), The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that you build unto me? And where is the place of my rest?

       2. For all those things has mine hand made, and all those things have been, says the LORD: but to THIS MAN will I look, even to HIM that is POOR and of a CONTRITE SPIRIT, and trembles at my word.”


         Now to me this does not sound like a MAN coming down from heaven and leaving everything behind to become poor, but rather THIS MAN, the Son of MAN, to whom the Lord will look fears his word and makes himself of a POOR and contrite SPIRIT. Jesus the Son of MAN by his own choice had no where to lay his head. Even at the age of 12 years old the heart and mind of Jesus was focused on doing his Father's work. Jesus as a MAN walking among us became poor for our sake by leaving his home and family to obey God's call on his life to preach the gospel and do all the Father's WILL.

         Here is another PROPHECY of Jesus being of a POOR and CONTRITE SPIRIT.

         Psalm 34:1-22.


       “I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth.

       2. My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the HUMBLE shall hear thereof, and be glad.

       3. O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together.

       4. I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.

       5. They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed. (speaking of people who truly looked and consider who this HUMBLE man of a POOR and CONTRITE SPIRIT truly was, and then believed on him as the Messiah)

       6. THIS POOR MAN cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.

       7. The angel of the LORD encamps round about them that FEAR him, and delivers them.

       8. O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that TRUSTS in him. (Blessed in the man who is POOR in SPIRIT. So those who TRUST in God and FEAR his word will be made RICH in God and have NO WANT. In other words, Jesus was our EXAMPLE to follow. Jesus became poor in SPIRIT by trusting in God's word.)

       9. O fear the LORD, you his saints: for there is NO WANT to them that FEAR him. (this is prophecy of Jesus who is teaching us HOW to be RICH and have NO WANT)

       10. The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that SEEK the LORD shall NOT WANT ANY GOOD THING.

       11. Come, you children, hearken unto ME: I (Jesus) will TEACH you the FEAR of the LORD.

       12. What man is he that desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? (Jesus said whatever you FORSAKE for the kingdom of God shall be added to us now in this life and in the world to come.)

       13. Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking guile. (a good man out of the good TREASURE of his HEART shall bring forth good things and and evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart shall bring forth evil things)

       14. Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

       15. The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

       16. The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

       17. The righteous cry, and the LORD hears, and delivers them out of all their troubles.

       18. The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a BROKEN heart; and saves such as be of a CONTRITE SPIRIT.

       19. Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivers him out of them all.

       20. He keeps all his bones: NOT ONE of them is BROKEN. (not one of the bones of Jesus was broken, which is the standard practice of one being crucified on a cross. The soldiers broke the legs of the two thieves on the cross, but when they came to Jesus they saw he was already dead so they pierce his side with a spear instead to make sure that Jesus was dead.)

       21. Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.

       22. The LORD redeems the soul of his servants: and none of them that TRUST in him shall be desolate.”


         The Bibles says that some will TRUST in chariots, and some TRUST in horses, but we shall TRUST in the name of the Lord our God and Jesus, which teaches us NOT to TRUST in earthly RICHES, but rather to TRUST in God.

         This is why Jesus taught us in that whatever FAMILY or houses that we GIVE UP for the sake of the gospel that God will reward us now in this present world a hundred fold and with eternal life in the world to come. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying. I am not teaching that God will make Christians RICH financially, but that God will make us rich SPIRITUALLY. You cannot put a PRICE on the JOY of the Lord and the rewards God gives us for helping others.

         So in conclusion I myself do NOT see that 1 Corinthians 8:9 proves without fail that Jesus preexisted for all eternity as God the Son the second person of the trinity who never had a BEGINNING.

         Now I have shown you scriptures of prophecy clearly teaching us that a MAN became poor and NOT God the Son the second person of the trinity became poor. So then, where are the scriptures that prove God the Son became poor by leaving heaven and coming down to earth to become flesh and still yet remained fully Almighty God at the same time having two natures?

         So then, we have seen that the first two verses used to try and prove that Jesus preexisted AS the Son of God called God the Son, the second person of the trinity do NOT prove that Jesus preexisted at all let alone as God the Son.

        But there are yet more verses used by those who teach the doctrine of the trinity and that Jesus preexisted to examine more closely so let us continue this study in God word by reading John 8:14 where Jesus says, 

      "I know where I came and where I go."

         Here is the website reference for Jewish history that I used in this study to show that Jesus was of a ROYAL linage destined to be a King: http://www.biblesearchers.com/yahshua/davidian/dynasty2.shtml



============================================================


       VERSE # 3.

DOES JOHN 8:14


I KNOW WHERE I CAME

AND WHERE I GO”


PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?


         John 8:14 where Jesus says,


       “Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: FOR (or BECAUSE) I know whence I came, and whither I go; but YOU cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”


         along with other verses like;

         John 3:13---Jesus descended from heaven.

         John 6:38---Jesus came down from heaven.

         John 6:62---Jesus ascended up to where he was before.

         John 8:23---I am from above, I am not of this world.

         John 8:58---Before Abraham was, I am.

         John 16:28---I came forth from the Father into the world.

         John 17:5---I go away to him that sent me.


         Are all used by some church denominations to try and prove that Jesus PREEXISTED for all eternity as the SON OF Almighty God the Father without beginning nor ending. In other words, these verses in the gospel of John are used to try and prove that Jesus has ALWAYS existed as the so called second person of the trinity, which teaches that God the SON did NOT have a BEGINNING, and it was God the Son who came down out of heaven down to the earth to become FLESH, but yet remain fully Almighty God the Son at the same time having two natures, one divine and other other human.

         But do these verses truly teach us that Almighty God is a TRINITY and that Jesus has always existed as God the SON for all eternity WITHOUT ever having a BEGINNING? What does the word of TRUTH, the WHOLE word of God truly teach us?

         Let us continue this study in God's word by reading this verse in question from an online Greek to English Interlinear LITERAL translation. Here is a link to this online Interlinear Bible:

         http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh8.pdf


         And here is just the LITERAL English translation of John 8:14 without the Greek.


       “answered Jesus and said to them and if ever I may be witnessing about myself TRUE is the witness of me that I have PERCEIVED (Strong's #1492)? which place (#4159) I CAME (#2064 also translated in this same verse as I AM COMING.) and ? where (#4226) I am under leading (# 5217) you yet not have perceived ? which place I am COMING (#2064) and ? where (#4226) I am under leading (#5217).”


         So then, the King James version translates Strong's #1492 as “I KNOW”, but the LITERAL meaning of this Greek word is “I have PERCEIVED” or “I AM PERCEIVING”, which to me makes a BIG difference as to how one may INTERPRET what this verse is TRULY teaching us. For you see, Jesus PERCEIVED by the revelation and teaching of the Holy Spirit that the scriptures spoke of HIM.

         Now the question becomes WHAT was Jesus PERCEIVING in this particular verse? Let us take a closer look at the next word and you will get a clearer understanding of what this verse truly means.

         The next Greek word is “pothen” that is translated as “whence” and means “where” from the King James version and is translated as “what place” from the LITERAL translation is Strong's #4159, which means ORIGIN, as in, Jesus is perceiving or has perceived his ORIGIN from where he IS COMING or he HAS COME. This word also means what place, state, SOURCE or CAUSE that Jesus is PERCEIVING is from his God and Father in heaven.

         Let us read the CONTEXT now and you will see that Jesus is being TAUGHT basically moment by moment of the Father as what to do and say. In other words, Jesus is giving all the glory to his God and Father by saying that he is PERCEIVING that the ORIGIN of the WORKS he is doing are FROM ABOVE from Almighty God the Father. Please read John 8:1-32.


       “Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

       2. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and TAUGHT them.

       3. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

       4. They say unto him, Master (or teacher), this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

       5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what say you?

       6. This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. (so then the context of John 8:14 is centered in Jesus being TESTED by the Scribes and Pharisees to see if God is truly with Jesus) But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. (now no one really knows for sure what Jesus wrote on the ground, but is does APPEAR the Jesus was HEARING something to write in the dirt from his God and Father as HOW he was going to answer those seeking to trap Jesus in his words.)

       7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

       8. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. (now this second time that Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground does indeed APPEAR that Jesus PERCEIVED a word of knowledge from the Father within him as to the sins of those who were trying to trap Jesus with his words and what Jesus wrote on the ground MAY have been a secret sin of each of those seeking to accuse him)

       9. And they which HEARD it (in other words, Jesus MAY have been writing on the ground something that was not really readable by those standing around, but each time he wrote something on the ground one of his would be accusers were CONVICTED by what they HEARD in their OWN conscience or mind, which was the Holy Spirit telling them that Jesus PERCEIVED their secret sin and he was writing it down for all to see. Or it may be that Jesus also spoke out what he wrote. All we know from sure is that they HEARD what Jesus wrote on the ground), being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

       10. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those your accusers? Has no man condemned you?

       11. She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more.

       12. Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (so right after the scribes and Pharisees who were convicted of their sins went out of the temple some of the other Pharisees started to find fault with what Jesus was saying)

       13. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, You bear record of yourself; your record is not true. (Then Jesus answers in response to this accusation the following)

       14. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: FOR (or BECAUSE) I know (or I am PERCEIVING) whence I came (or the ORIGIN or SOURCE I came), and whither I go; but YOU cannot tell whence I come (or you cannot tell the SOURCE of the ORIGIN of me by the WORKS that I do), and whither I go. (In other words, in the LIGHT of what we just learned that the LITERAL meanings of these words Jesus spoke, Jesus is literally saying, if I bear witness of myself, then my witness is true, BECAUSE I am PERCEIVING that the SOURCE of what I am HEARING and obeying to do is from my God and Father from heaven above, but yet you have no clue of how I knew what to write on the ground or why I say what I say. You are NOT perceiving that Almighty God is showing me these things and that it is God IN me, who is the one doing the works you see me do.)

       15. You judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

       16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: FOR (or BECAUSE) I am NOT ALONE, but I and the Father that sent me.

       17. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

       18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.(makes TWO)

       19. Then said they unto him, Where is your Father? Jesus answered, You neither know me, nor my Father: if you had known me, you should have known my Father also. (In other words, they were not UNDERSTANDING what Jesus was teaching them that Almighty God the Father who DWELT IN him was the SOURCE or the ORIGIN of what Jesus was teaching, saying, and doing)

       20. These words spoke Jesus in the treasury, as he TAUGHT in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

       21. Then said Jesus AGAIN unto them (in other words, Jesus was saying to them, let me explain this another way to you), I go my way, and you shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, you cannot come.

       22. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he said, Whither I go, you cannot come. (What Jesus was saying to these Jews is the same thing Jesus said to Peter and his disciples in John chapter 13 and 14. Jesus said you cannot follow me NOW, but AFTERWARD you shall be able to FOLLOW me. Jesus was speaking of living without sin and doing the WORKS that Jesus was doing, because Jesus had not yet went to the cross to die for their and our sins so that the eternal Spirit could DWELL IN US to empower US to do the works of Jesus and live without sin. Please read the studies “THE POWER AND THE AUTHORITY OF THE BELIEVER!” and “HOW YOU CAN LIVE YOUR LIFE WITHOUT SIN!”)

       23. And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from ABOVE: you are of this world; I am not of this world. (This verse simply means that some of these Jews were listening to the WRONG VOICE. Jesus was saying to them you are being lead by the god of this world system, but I am listening to the voice from ABOVE who is not influenced by the god of this world system. The context of this verse is about SIN and NOT being able to overcome sin in our OWN strength. This verse does NOT mean that Jesus descended down from heaven ABOVE, because he teaches US that we ALSO must be born form ABOVE. See John 3:3 from the Young's LITERAL Translation, “Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may not be born from ABOVE, he is not able to see the reign of God;'” Jesus also teaches us who are born from ABOVE are NOT OF this world and this doe NOT mean that we came down out of heaven ABOVE.)

       24. I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: FOR (or BECAUSE) if you believe not that I am he ( or IF you do NOT believe that Jesus is the chosen anointed one that was prophesied to come to be the savior of the world, who was sent by Almighty God himself, then), you shall die in your SINS.

       25. Then said they unto him, Who are you? And Jesus said unto them, Even the SAME that I said unto you from the BEGINNING. (at the very beginning of the ministry of Jesus he told them that Almighty God has ANOINTED him to preach the gospel or deliverance. And in this entire passage of scripture Jesus is saying that it is the FATHER who DWELLS IN him that is the one who is doing the WORKS that they are seeing Jesus do. So Jesus is simply saying that he is PERCEIVING that the SOURCE or the ORIGIN or from what place this voice is from as to what he is HEARING is from above from his God and Father who sent him from the very beginning of his ministry. Jesus quoted Isaiah and said this scripture is fulfilled in your ears. See my study on this verse for a deeper understand of the true meaning.  Please read the study "John 8:24 If you do not believe that I AM", then you shall die in your sin, which some use to INTIMIDATE and compel Christians to believe that doctrine of the trinity claiming that this verse means that if one does not believe that Jesus is Yahweh the great I am that I am himself then they are not true born again Christians and that they shall die in their sin unless they recant and believe that Jesus is Yahweh himself in the flesh having TWO natures one divine and one human.)

       26. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I SPEAK to the world those things which I have HEARD of HIM.

       27. They understood not that he spoke to them of the Father.

       28. Then said Jesus unto them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do NOTHING OF MYSELF; but as my Father has TAUGHT me, I speak these things. (in other words, Jesus has PERCEIVED that the voice he has been hearing within him and perhaps audibly as well is the voice of his God and Father TEACHING him what to do and say)

       29 And he (Almighty God the Father) that sent me is WITH me: the Father has NOT left me alone; FOR (or BECAUSE) I do always those things that please him. (in other words, the ETERNAL Holy Spirit, Almighty God the Father HIMSELF, is DWELLING IN his SON Jesus teaching him what to do and say step by step all along the way and Jesus is simply OBEYING what he HEARS or see the Father saying or doing.)

       30. As he spoke these words, many believed on him. (now some of the Jews are starting to understand that Jesus is TEACHING them that Almighty God the Father is WITH Jesus and this is WHY Jesus knew what to write on the ground and how to answer these Pharisees who were NOT there to learn, but where there only to try and trap Jesus with his words.)

       31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF you CONTINUE in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;

       32. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


         So then, in John 8:14 Jesus is not saying that he LITERALLY descended or came down out of heaven as a spirit being called the Word to become a human being, but rather Jesus was saying that he was PERCEIVING that the SOURCE of the ORIGIN of what he was hearing within himself was from ABOVE from his God and Father, the Almighty.

         Jesus PERCEIVED that the scriptures spoke of HIM. Please read John 5:36-47.


       “But I have greater witness than that of John: FOR (or BECAUSE) the WORKS which the Father has given me to finish, the same WORKS that I DO, bear WITNESS of me, THAT (or PROVE THAT) the Father has SENT me.

       37. And the Father HIMSELF, which has SENT me, has borne WITNESS of me. You have neither HEARD his VOICE at any time, nor seen his shape. (Jesus was saying the WORKS you see me do are the Father bearing WITNESS that he has SENT me to show to you the one true and only Almighty God and to teach you about what you must do to be saved and receive eternal life in the world to come. Jesus was saying I hear his VOICE but you are NOT hearing his VOICE, nor are you PERCEIVING that these WORKS are his OUTWARD form or appearance of who the Father truly is. The word shape here is the same Greek word used in 1 Thessalonians 5:22 for the APPEARANCE of evil, which is speaking of the evil WORKS that men were doing and shall do, from which we are to abstain.)

       38. And you have not his word abiding in you: FOR (or BECAUSE) whom he has SENT, him you believe not.

       39. Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify OF ME.

       40. And you will not come to me, that you might have life.

       41. I receive not honor from men.

       42. But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you.

       43. I am come in MY Father's NAME, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. (Just as a side note I believe that this verse is speaking of the linage of Ishmael who did not believe Jesus but did indeed believe Muhammad later in history to follow his teachings of Islam. This may also be what Jesus meant in Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 where those who SAY that they are JEWS and are NOT will come and worship at our feet. Now Muslims do not say that they are Jews, but rather that they are the TRUE heirs of the promise of Abraham. and indeed they are the heirs of Abraham according to the flesh so they are Jews but not the TRUE Jews of the seed of Isaac.)

       44. How can you believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that comes from God only?

       45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuses you, even Moses, in whom you trust.

       46. For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me: FOR (or BECAUSE) he wrote of ME

       47. But if you believe NOT his writings, HOW shall you believe MY WORDS?”


         Again just as a side note these words of Jesus to me carry prophecy of Muslims not believing the writings of Moses was pointing to Jesus and rather believe that the prophet God would raise up was Muhammad.

         Then we read in John 8:42 where Jesus proceeded forth from Almighty God the Father and clearly teaches us that Jesus did NOT come of HIMSELF, but rather it was the Father who SENT him to preach the gospel according to Luke 4:18 through the ANOINTING of the Holy Spirit within him.

         John 8:41-47.


       “You do the DEEDS (or the WORKS) of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

       42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I OF MYSELF, but he SENT me. (now those who teach that doctrine of the trinity claim that Jesus by his OWN FREE WILL of HIMSELF came down to the earth to die for the sins of the world, but this verse teaches us just the opposite that Jesus did NOT come of HIMSELF, but rather that Jesus was SENT by his God and Father.)

       43. Why do you not understand my speech? Even because you cannot hear my word.

       44. You are OF your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

       45. And because I tell you the truth, you believe me not.

       46. Which of you convinces me of SIN? (Again Jesus is saying in different words that he is following and obeying his Father from ABOVE, or I am from ABOVE and the WORKS I do PROVE it. Which of you can find SIN in me? None of you because he who is OF God  UNDERSTANDS and OBEYS God from above.) And if I say the truth, why do you not believe me?

       47. He that is OF God hears God's words: you therefore hear them not, because you are not of God (but you are OF you father the devil, because you are OBEYING and following the lies of the devil).”


         Now of course this does not mean that the devil was LITERALLY the father who BIRTHED or BEGOT these Jews, but rather that they were following the wrong VOICE from BENEATH.

         So the one meaning of Jesus being OF God is that Jesus followed and obeyed the VOICE of his God and Father. But this word "OF God" in the light of other verses in the Bible does indeed mean that Jesus was LITERALLY BORN or BEGOTTEN OF Almighty God the Father.

         There is NO Doubt the Jesus CAME FROM God, was OF God, CAME OUT FROM God, had his ORIGIN from God above, but NONE of these verses like John chapter 8 verses 14 and 23 are teaching that Jesus descended down out of heaven above as God the SON having ALWAYS existed WITHOUT BEGINNING and being CO EQUAL with Almighty God to become flesh and yet remain fully the divine Son of God at the same time having two natures.

         But rather these verses simple mean that Jesus, the Son of MAN PERCEIVED that the scriptures spoke of HIM and that Jesus was listening to and obeying the VOICE that was from ABOVE. 

         Please read James 3:14-17, which teaches us that we must do the same thing that Jesus gave us as an example to follow.


       “But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

       15. This wisdom descends NOT from ABOVE, but is EARTHLY, sensual, devilish. (this is what Jesus is saying when he said in John 8:23 “ And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from ABOVE: you are of this world; I am NOT of this worldYou see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, Jesus was simply saying that he was obeying the voice of his God and Father who was from ABOVE and NOT of this present devilish world, and that those who were obey the voice of Satan the devil are of THIS present selfish, sensual, earthly, devilish world.)

       16. For (or because) where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

       17. But the WISDOM that is FROM ABOVE is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, WITHOUT partiality, and WITHOUT hypocrisy.”


         Can you not see my dear brothers and sister in our Lord Jesus Christ, that ALL these verses that SEEM to be saying that Jesus descended down out of heaven above to come into the world and therefore Jesus is not of this world are actually and truly saying that Jesus loved NOT the things of this present world, which is presently being ruled by the god of this present world, Satan, the Devil. Please read 1 John 2:15-17.


       “Love NOT the world, neither the THINGS that are IN the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT in him.(and we know that the Father was IN the Son of MAN)

       16. For ALL that is IN the world, the LUST of the flesh, and the LUST of the eyes, and the PRIDE of life, is NOT of the Father, but IS OF the world.

       17. And the world passes away, AND the LUST thereof (in other words, ALL of the things of the god of this present world shall pass away): but he that does the will of God abides for ever.”


         Again, this is what Jesus meant when he said you are of THIS WORLD, but he was NOT of this world. In other words, Jesus LOVED the THINGS of his God and Father that is from ABOVE. We can SAY that we love God, but if our DEEDS do NOT show it, then we are lying against the TRUTH.

         Jesus said that his kingdom was NOT OF THIS WORLD, but yet WE are IN the kingdom of God right now being IN THIS PRESENT WORLD. You see, while we are LITERALLY present IN this present world we as Christians are NO LONGER OF THIS WORLD, because we have been translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son. So then, in TRUTH we can be seated in heaven places while we are still presently ON the EARTH. And in the SAME WAY Jesus being from ABOVE and NOT of this world does NOT dogmatically demand that Jesus LITERALLY as a spirit being called the Word actually descended down out of heaven above down to the earth to be made a human being.

         Let us continue this study in God's word by taking a closer look at the next verse in question, John 3:13 which SEEMS to be saying that Jesus came down from heaven.




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       VERSE #4.

DOES JOHN 3:13


JESUS CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”


PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?


         Perhaps the three most convincing verses that seem to be saying without a doubt that Jesus descended DOWN FROM and and then ASCENDED BACK UP to where he was BEFORE is John 3:13, John 6:38, and John 6:62.

         But as I have said many times that ANY verse when taken OUT of CONTEXT and viewed ALONE and APART from the REST of god's word may SEEM to be saying something that it is NOT TRULY saying.

         Let us begin this study in God word by first reading all three of these verses OUT of CONTEXT, and then see their true meaning  being left in context.


         John 3:13


       “And no man has ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, but he that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”


         John 6:38


       “For I came DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”


         John 6:62


       “What and if you shall see the Son of man ASCEND UP WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?”


         Now when one reads these verses alone and apart from the whole word of God and is dogmatically taught that these verse mean without fail that Jesus has PREEXISTED for all eternity without beginning so therefore Jesus IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, then I can see how one could believe that Jesus preexisted as Yahweh himself. But I can NOT see how these or any verses prove that Jesus preexisted as God the SON the second person of the trinity who came down out of heaven and was incarnated to become human but yet remained the fully divine God the Son having TWO natures. I find ZERO scriptures to even hint at such a teaching left alone prove that Jesus preexisted as God the Son who became flesh and remained God at the same time.

         Now again I can see why Oneness believer teach that Yahweh HIMSELF was manifested to become flesh, but when OTHER verses are closely considered and one sees without fail that Jesus is NOT Almighty God himself in the flesh, then CONFUSION sets in even to the point where some Christians begin to doubt both the trinity doctrine and the oneness doctrine. And even some begin to doubt that the Bible is the word of God, because they know that God is NOT the author of confusion and that his word does NOT CONTRADICT itself.

         So then, the purpose of this study is to answer the question as to whether or not these verses teach without a doubt that Jesus PREEXISTED as the SON OF Almighty God for all eternity being God the SON? For you see the MAIN reason as to WHY this doctrine even exists is to TRY and prove that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God and therefore Jesus is DIVINE or DEITY.

         Again as I have already said I myself believe that Jesus preexisted as Yahweh HIMSELF or more precisely as the IMAGE that Yahweh had WITHIN himself, which he brought froth into existence by SPEAKING forth his word of saying out from his mouth. Also to ME, Jesus being exalted to become a God under his God and Father BY his God and Father is proof enough for ME that Jesus is deity. The fact that Jesus came from God, and the Jesus came out from God and that he was SENT or COMMISSIONED by God is proof enough for ME that Jesus came out from THE DIVINE nature of ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF to become flesh to later be ANOINTED of God to accomplish the task given to him to do and AFTER the Son of MAN become obedient to die on the cross he was GIVEN the divine nature of immortality to become DEITY or a God to rule on his God and Father's throne at his Father's side.

         So the QUESTION becomes WHY is it so important for Satan to keep this man made doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Jesus which INCORRECTLY teaches that Jesus IS FULLY THE ALMIGHTY God himself and fully a human being at the SAME time? 

         When you come to understand that Satan does NOT want YOU to KNOW that the SAME eternal Holy Spirit who DWELT IN his Son Jesus to EMPOWER his Son to over come sin and do the WORKS that he sent or commissioned his Son to do NOW DWELLS IN YOU to EMPOWER YOU to do the SAME WORKS that Jesus did, then you will understand why Satan wants as many Christians as he can to be DECEIVED into believing these man made doctrines that took many centuries to be developed and forced to be accepted for FEAR of being excommunicated from the church, the fear of being persecuted, and even the fear martyred for rejecting these false teachings.

         With that being said let us now read John 3:13 being LEFT IN the CONTEXT of where it is found.


       “Jesus answered and said unto him, Are you a master of Israel, and know not these things?

       11. Verily, verily, I say unto you, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and you receive not our witness.

       12. If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

       13. And no MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, EVEN the Son of MAN which is IN heaven. (please keep in mind that John is writing this RECORD of PAST events concerning Jesus where he is speaking what has ALREADY happened in the future tense as IF Jesus was prophesying of his death, resurrection, ASCENDING into heaven and THEN DESCENDING BACK to the earth for forty days BEFORE Jesus as the Son of MAN Ascended into heaven a SECOND time where the Son of MAN in NOW his NEW glorified divine immortal body of flesh and bone is IN heaven at this present time awaiting his second coming. In other words, this verse has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Jesus PREEXISTING as a SPIRIT being up IN heaven WITH Almighty God as the SON OF God being God the SON, the so called second person of the trinity for all eternity and then one day Almighty God SENT his SON, God the SON DOWN to the earth to be INCARNATED to become a human being and yet REMAIN fully ALMIGHTY God at the same time. The CONTEXT is clearly and plainly speaking of Jesus being CRUCIFIED rather than Jesus being SENT FROM heaven as and ALREADY EXISTING SPIRIT being to be transformed into a human being. Go back and read verse 13 again and notice that Jesus says no MAN and the Son of MAN and not the Son of God. God is NOT a MAN neither the Son of MAN. No MAN has ever lived in heaven except Jesus to Son of MAN. Jesus is speaking of his yet future crucifixion and ascension right after his resurrection to receive his reward or eternal life and then come back down to show himself alive for forty day before he ascend back up into heaven.)

       14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of MAN be lifted up: (in other words, Jesus as the Son of MAN was SENT by his God and Father to DIE on the cross for the SINS of the whole world. And then AFTER Jesus died and was raised from the dead by his God and Father, Jesus ASCENDED into heaven to receive his new glorified IMMORTAL body of flesh and blood. And THEN Jesus CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN as the Son of MAN being highly exalted and glorified by his God and Father to BECOME God the SON who is and always will be UNDER his God and Father the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God. This is what the WHOLE word of God truly teaches us.)

       15. That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

       16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten SON, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

       17. For God sent not his SON into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

       18. He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed IN the NAME of the only begotten SON OF God.”


         No where in the entire Bible do I myself ever find that we are commanded or taught that we must believe that Jesus IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF in order to be saved. But I do find many verses that clearly teach us to believe that Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God the Father.

         However, some of you may still be thinking to yourself about this and other verses, which say that Jesus DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN? And think to yourself that these verses must surely prove that Jesus preexisted with the Father IN HEAVEN from all eternity as God the SON?

         Again these verses when taken OUT of CONTEXT do SEEM to be saying that Jesus preexisted so they are indeed a good point to raise and therefore these verses should not be brushed under the rug, so to speak. So again I apologize for not clarifying these verses and passages of scripture in my other studies related to WHO IS JESUS? In fact these verses are so convincing to some Christians that I feel we should take even a CLOSER look at them in order to see what these verses are TRULY saying in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.


         Now as we CONTINUE to take a CLOSER look at these verses please keep in mind that whatever we CONCLUDE these verses or passages of scripture to mean, then that conclusion which one draws or INTERPRETS these verse to mean must AGREE with the REST of God's word. In other words, if one dogmatically demands that these verses mean without fail that Jesus must have preexisted with Almighty God from all eternity past as God's SON being God the SON, the second person of the trinity, then this conclusion or interpretation must AGREE with the rest of God's word.

         And if it does NOT agree with the WHOLE word of God, then it should be rejected as being a FALSE teaching. 

         So then, let us continue this section by taking an even closer look at one of the most widely used verses to try and prove that Jesus preexisted with the Father in heaven, because it plainly states that Jesus came DOWN FROM HEAVEN or DESCEND from heaven down to the earth. Please read again John 3:13, which does indeed plainly state that Jesus CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. But again WHAT exactly does this statement of fact TRULY MEAN in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.



       “And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that CAME DOWN from heaven, even the Son of MAN which is IN heaven.”



          You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, once again when this verse is kept in the CONTEXT of where it is found you can see that Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus about the yet FUTURE death, resurrection, ascension into heaven to his God and Father and to our God and Father before the Son of man DESCENDED BACK to the EARTH in order to be seen of his disciples for forty days to show himself ALIVE from the dead in a new flesh and bone immortal body that he received from his God and Father the one true and only Almighty God.

          In other words, this verse does NOT dogmatically mean without fail that Jesus descended from heaven at the time in which he was BORN of a woman. But rather this verse is referring to WHEN Jesus ASCENDED FIRST into heaven and then he DESCENDED BACK to the earth for a short time before he ASCENDED a second time back into heaven to now be IN heaven at the right hand of the Father awaiting his second coming.

         Those who teach the false doctrine of soul sleep where the dead are dead and no not one righteous believer has ever ascended into heaven to be present with the Lord after they have died also MISINTERPRET this verse found in John 3:13. But in truth NO MAN had ever ascended into heaven BEFORE that TIME in history when Jesus being a MAN ascended into heaven with the souls of the Old Testament saints. In other words, this verse is speaking of WHEN Jesus was a MAN or a HUMAN BEING, so therefore this verse has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Jesus PREEXISTING in heaven before the spoken word out of the mouth of God BECAME or was MADE flesh. Please read the study called “WHAT AND WHERE IS PARADISE” for a deeper understanding of why the doctrine of soul sleep is not a sound Biblical teaching, but for now let us continue with this study in God's word. And for a deeper understand of HOW Yahweh himself literally becomes what he speaks forth into existence please read the studies "WHAT DOES GOD INCARNATE MEAN?" and "JOHN 1:1 THE WORD WAS GOD!"

         This phrase “CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” is used five more times in the Bible and in these five times they are referring to Jesus being the bread of life COME DOWN from heaven. All these other five uses of this phrase “CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” are found in John 6:38-58. Again the CONTEXT teaches us that Jesus was sent from God to do his Father's will, which was to die on the cross in order to BECOME the BREAD of LIFE so that whosoever will eat of this true bread of life shall live and not perish. Jesus said in John 6:51 that he was the bread of life and that this bread of life was his flesh which he would one day very soon lay down for the sins of the world.



       “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I WILL GIVE is my flesh, which I WILL GIVE for the life of the world.”



         Please keep in mind that the gospels and the entire New Testament was written AFTER all these events of Jesus had already taken place. In other words, John was giving his account of what he remembered Jesus doing and teaching. So at times it may SEEM that Jesus CAME DOWN from heaven at his BIRTH. But the truth of the matter is that one of the reasons that Jesus was born into to world to TEACH us of Almighty God the Father. You see in the Bible the word "BREAD" is often used to speak of a "TEACHING".

         Also please keep in mind that the term or the word “BREAD” is used in scripture to speak of DOCTRINE or TEACHING. Jesus used the term LEAVEN to refer to the FALSE TEACHINGS of the Sadducees and Pharisees. Please read Matthew 16:5-12, which teaches us that BREAD can also mean TEACHING. In other words, it was the TEACHING that Jesus is the ONLY WAY to the Father that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. The TEACHING of Jesus brings LIFE. God's word QUICKENS us or makes us alive from being spiritually dead in our sins.

         Jesus came to SHOW us the Father, to TEACH us who the one true and only Almighty God is by SHOWING us the father's WORKS. Jesus was the EXPRESS IMAGE of his God and Father. The WORKS that people SEEN Jesus doing were actually done BY HIS God and Father who DWELT IN his SON Jesus.



       “And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.

       6. Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

       7. And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no BREAD.

       8. Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O you of little faith, why reason you among yourselves, because you have brought no BREAD?

       9. Do you not yet UNDERSTAND, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets you took up?

       10. Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets you took up?

       11. How is it that you do NOT UNDERSTAND that I spake it NOT to you concerning BREAD, that ye should beware of the LEAVEN of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

       12. Then understood they how that he bade them NOT beware of the leaven of BREAD, but of the DOCTRINE of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.”



         So again, it was the BREAD of LIFE or more precisely it was the TEACHING that Jesus was the ONE whom the scriptures PROPHESIED would be raised up from among the people to be the savior of the world that came down from heaven and not that Jesus himself came down from heaven as the preexisting God the Son who incarnated himself to become flesh but yet remain fully the divine God the Son having two natures. 

         You see, in truth in John 3:13 Jesus was teaching the Jews of his yet FUTURE death, resurrection, ascension and his COMING DOWN from heaven only after he was going to be drawn up into heaven to be given IMMORTALITY by his God and Father and would be then that Jesus would COME DOWN from heaven BACK to the earth to show that he had conquered death hell and the grave and was ALIVE forever more and to show that he was indeed the SON of Almighty God. And in every other place it was the TEACHING of God coming down from Heaven and not Jesus himself coming down from heaven.

         Please read Proverbs 30:4 from the New Century Version.



       “Who has GONE UP to heaven and COME BACK DOWN ? Who can hold the wind in his hand? Who can gather up the waters in his coat? Who has set in place the ends of the earth? What is his name or his SON'S name? Tell me, if you know!

       5. Every word of God is true. He guards those who come to him for safety.

       6. Do not add to his words, or he will correct you and prove you are a liar.”



         Please notice that the "WHEN" that Jesus CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN was only AFTER Jesus had FIRST ASCENDED UP into heaven after he was raised from the dead to be given IMMORTAL life from his God and Father. And then only AFTER Jesus had ascended UP into heaven is WHEN Jesus came BACK DOWN from heaven to show himself ALIVE for forty days by many infallible proofs and then ascend into heaven where is is now. Jesus ascended up into heaven TWO times and has only came back down ONE time and is in heaven now awaiting to come back down a SECOND time.

         So then, to use these verses to try and prove that Jesus preexisted with the Father IN heaven as God the SON the second person of the trinity is to ADD to the word of God and going beyond what the whole word of God truly teaches us. This is called reading INTO the scriptures what one desires them to say. Please read the full version of this study under the two titles JOHN 3:13 WHEN DID JESUS DESCEND FROM HEAVEN, and JESUS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON!, which deal with HOW the Word, or logos, or saying of God was MADE flesh by being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary.

         But for now let us move on to the next verse in question John 6:38 where again this verse SEEMS to be saying that Jesus came down from heaven as an ALREADY preexisting SON of Almighty God to be BORN as the Son of MAN.



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                VERSE #5.

DOES JOHN 6:38

FOR I (JESUS) CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”

PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?


         Before we actually get into taking a closer look at this verse I want my readers and seekers of the TRUTH to know that whatever one concludes this verse to mean, then that INTERPRETATION must AGREE with the REST of God's word with absolutely NO CONTRADICTIONS with any other part of the clear, plain, and simple word of Almighty God.

         Also please keep in mind that the MAIN REASON of WHY some Christians dogmatically demand that verse like John 6:38, John 6:62, and John 3:13 to mean with out fail that Jesus preexisted is to TRY and prove that Jesus has ALWAYS existed without beginning as God the SON with God the Father for all eternity and therefore thus prove that Jesus IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God, who became a human being and yet REMAINED FULLY Almighty God while being a man at the same time. To me, the sole REASON that this doctrine of a PREEXISTING Jesus came into being was to try and prove that doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus. In other words, in order to prove that these doctrines are SOUND BIBLICAL teaching then it must be proven that Jesus IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God.


         So then let us begin this study in God's word by reading the verse in question being left in the ENTIRE context of where it is found. I realize that this is a rather long context, but if you are TRULY desiring to know what this verse is TRULY teaching us, then it is necessary to read the entire context to see the truth straight from the word of God your self rather than me just dogmatically telling you what this verse means and threaten you that if you do not believe exact what I teach then you shall not be saved. Again I caution you to search the word of truth for YOURSELF when you hear teaching that says you MUST believe that teaching in order to be saved or you MUST belong to that particular church in order to be saved. These kind of teachers and churches are not always teaching you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so search the word of God daily to SEE if what you are being taught is the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of God.

         Here is John 6:1-71. Again please read the entire context and read the verse by verse explanations that I give throughout this passage of scripture.


       “After these things (speaking of the miracles of healing) Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.

       2. And a great multitude followed him, because they SAW his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

       3. And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.

       4. And the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

       5. When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he said unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?

       6. And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.

       7. Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. (in other words, Philip MAY have been saying, Lord we ONLY have two hundred pennyworth to buy some bread and this would only be enough to feed this many people a tiny bit of bread.)

       8. One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said unto him,

       9. There is a lad here, which has five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? (in other words, with all the money we have and all the food that can be gathered from among the people will still NOT be enough to feed this many people.)

       10. And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.

       11. And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. (in other words, Jesus OBEY what he either saw in a vision of dream or he heard by the Holy Spirit dwelling in him to take these five barley loafs of BREAD and two SMALL fishes to bless them and give thanks to God for them, and then to by FAITH instruct his disciples to feed the people. Now I myself see this miracle manifesting much like the bottle of oil that never ran dry in the Old Testament. So as each disciple took some bread and fish that basket never seem to go empty no matter how much they kept on taking out to feed the five thousand of more people.)

               12. When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that REMAIN, that nothing be lost.

       13. Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. (this does not dogmatically mean that the apostle carried with them eleven EMPTY baskets in order to have twelve baskets to hold all the left as some atheist claim to deceive and confuse Christians. The simple solution to this dilemma is that one basket at a time was gathered and then poured out into a pile to keep from littering the country side. They may have taken the left overs to the city dump or fed then to the animals. The Bible simply does not tell us all the details.)

       14. Then those men, when they had SEEN the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a TRUTH that PROPHET that should COME INTO the world. (in other words, this multitude of people after SEEING this miracle BELIEVED that Jesus was INDEED that PROPHET which the scriptures foretold or prophesied to COME into the world who would be KING to free the people for their enemies.)

       15. When Jesus therefore perceived (or KNEW) that they would come and take him by force, to make him a KING, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

       16. And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,

       17. And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

       18. And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

       19. So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. (in the gospel of Matthew the disciples feared that they were seeing a spirit or a ghost walking of the water)

       20. But he said unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

       21. Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

       22. The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one where into his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;

       23. (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)

       24. When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.

       25. And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when came you hither?

       26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, You seek me, NOT because you saw the miracles, but because you did EAT of the loaves, and were filled.

       27. Labor NOT for the MEAT which perishes, BUT for THAT MEAT (BUT do labor or work for that FOOD, speaking of SPIRITUAL food, which is the WORDS or the TEACHINGS of Jesus, that LIVING BREAD) which endures unto everlasting life, which the Son of MAN shall give unto you: for (or BECAUSE) him has God the Father sealed. (the word sealed here means to ATTEST to or to AUTHENTICATE, to bear WITNESS that Jesus was TRULY sent by Almighty God. In other words, Jesus was saying forget about filling your bellies and CONSIDERED these WORKS of healing that you see me do because they TESTIFY that I am the ONE which the scriptures have prophesied to COME into the world. Jesus is saying quite thinking about filling your BELLY and pay ATTENTION to what I am SAYING for I have the WORDS the will produce eternal life in you, if so be that you hear and obey what I TEACH you to DO)

       28. Then said they unto him, What shall we DO, that we might work the works of God?

       29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK of God, that you BELIEVE on him whom he has sent. (In others words, Jesus is saying that what work you need to be doing right now is to BELIEVE what I am TEACHING you because it is Almighty God who has SENT me to preach the gospel of salvation. The word "SENT" here literal reads in the present tense as the one sending me. In other words, it means to COMMISSION, which means to give authority and power to accomplish the task one is given to do. The Son was NOT sent down from heaven but rather COMMISSION by God to go out into the world to preach the gospel. Jesus was ANOINTED with power from on high meaning that the same eternal Spirit who now dwells IN us dwelt IN Jesus to empowered him to live his life without sin and preach the gospel.)

       30. They said therefore unto him, What SIGN show you then, that we may see, and believe you? What do you work? (in other words, the Jews now want PROOF that Jesus is truly who is saying that he is. They are asking Jesus to given them a SIGN that they may know that God SENT or commissioned Jesus and that He is speaking WORDS FROM GOD)

       31. Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He (where these Jews were speaking of Moses that) gave them BREAD FROM HEAVEN to eat. (in other words, Moses gave us a SIGN so where is YOUR SIGN?)

       32. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you NOT that bread from heaven; but my Father gives you the TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN. (In other words, Moses did NOT send that manna down from heaven, but is was my Father in heaven who gave your ancestor that manna that they eat and died, but now my Father gives you TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN that if you eat you will NOT DIE but shall be given eternal life.)

       33. For the BREAD of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world. (the phrase “is he which” is not in the original text. The LITERAL Greek reads, “For the BREAD of THE GOD is the one descending out of the heaven and gives life to the world” The “BREAD” is the one descending out of heaven. The word “BREAD” in the Bible at times is referring to TEACHING or the WORDS of God coming down from heaven to give eternal life to the world so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES the WORDS of Jesus and that Jesus died for their sins may have eternal life in the world to come if so be that they CONTINUE in the WORDS of Jesus to OBEY them. In other words, Jesus was saying that WHAT he was TEACHING them at that moment in time were coming down out of heaven from God to Jesus to speak forth the WORDS that he was HEARING from his God and Father to speak. Also another meaning of this verse is that Jesus is literally the LIVING WORD of Almighty God that came into existence when Mary AGREED to the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God spoken to he by the angel Gabriel. Now Jesus is saying that he is that LIVING BREAD that God sent down from heaven. That is to say, Jesus was teaching us that he is the ONE which the WRITTEN WORD of God has prophesied to COME and not that he literally came down from heaven).

       34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us THIS BREAD. (Even the Jews dull of hearing  understand that Jesus spoke of the BREAD coming down from heaven)

       35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the BREAD of LIFE (in other words, are you not hearing and understanding what I am saying to you? I am the FULFILLMENT of the PROPHESIED WORD of God that was to COME. I am the LIVING WORD. I am the WORD OF THE LIFE that was MADE ALIVE to become a living human being, the Son of MAN. The written and spoken word of God by the prophets said that I would BE and here I am. Jesus is saying, I am the fulfillment of that THAT WORD that Almighty God sent from heaven to become LIVING flesh, and I am SENT out into the world to teach you the WORDS of God in order for those who BELIEVE and obey my WORDS will inherit eternal life in the world to come): he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst.

       36. But I said unto you, That you also have seen me, and believe not.(the LITERAL Greek does not have punctuation and reads as follows, “and I said that unto you and you have seen me and not you are believing” So the emphasis is both SEEING Jesus and BELIEVING that Jesus is the Messiah, the prophesied one that was to come. Remember that Jesus had just told these particular Jews that they were NOT SEEKING him because of the MIRACLES they SAW, but rather they were just seeking more physical FOOD to EAT like they ate the day before when Jesus gave them a free meal of fish and bread. Now Jesus in these following verses is speaking of his FUTURE SECOND coming when Jesus shall descend or come down out of heaven where every EYE shall SEE him, but NOT EVERY eye that SEE his coming shall BELIEVE that he is the MESSIAH.)

       37. All that the Father GIVES me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

       38. For I came down from heaven, NOT to do mine own will, but the WILL of him that sent me.

       39. And THIS the Father's WILL which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE it up again at the LAST DAY.

       40. And this is the WILL of him that sent me, that every one which SEES the Son, AND BELIEVES on him, may have everlasting life: and I will RAISE him up at the LAST DAY. (the LITERAL Greek is as follows: “ but this, or and this, or this ALSO, or this YET is the will of the one SENDING me that every one that is BEHOLDING the Son AND BELIEVING on him may be having life eternal and I shall be raising him that last day.” You see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, we are not truly and actually GIVEN to Jesus UNTIL that LAST DAY when ONLY the good and faithful servants of God who CONTINUE to believe and ENDURE right up to the very END shall be RAISED from the dead and given the right to eat of the tree of ETERNAL LIFE in the world to come.)

       41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the BREAD which came down from heaven.

       42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he said, I came down from heaven? (in other words, the Jews just repeated the words that Jesus spoke and murmured because they did NOT UNDERSTAND what Jesus was saying to them. In verse 41 it seems to me that they MISUNDERSTOOD that Jesus was saying that he was LITERALLY BREAD that came down from heaven. In other words, these Jews could understand how God would send BREAD out of heaven, but they could not UNDERSTAND what Jesus MEANT by him saying that HE was that BREAD that came down from heaven. So they said in verse 42, HOW is it that Jesus said he came down from heaven? They were still yet WONDERING what Jesus MEANT by these words.)

       43. Jesus THEREFORE answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (in the following verses Jesus EXPLAINS what HE means by the words he spoke in this entire passage of scripture)

       44. No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY. (So then, Jesus is speaking about his SECOND coming when he shall RAISE the dead IN CHRIST ONLY. In other words, all OTHERS who SEE Jesus at his SECOND COMING and then RECOGNIZE or ACKNOWLEDGE that he is the MESSIAH shall be saved ALIVE to go into the 1000 year reign of Jesus in their MORTAL bodies to be TAUGHT of the Lord. But ONLY the good and faithful believers in Jesus Christ will be DRAWN up to meet Jesus in the air.)

       45. It is written in the prophets, And they SHALL be ALL TAUGHT of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has LEARNED of the Father, comes unto me.

       46. Not that any man has seen (or no man has clearly discerned or perceived with understanding) the Father, save he which is OF God, he has seen (or clearly discerned and truly understands) the Father.

       47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me has everlasting life.

       48. I am THAT BREAD of life. (Jesus is NOT LITERALLY saying that he himself is a LITERAL loaf of BREAD that came down from heaven, but rather Jesus is saying that his is the SPOKEN WORD of God that was SENT DOWN from heaven by Almighty God with his angel Gabriel that he SPOKE to the virgin Mary and was MADE LIVING in the womb of Mary to be BORN a HUMAN BEING. The literal Greek is saying, “I am THAT BREAD OF THE LIFE, meaning that Jesus CAME FORTH OUT FROM GOD BY the SPOKEN LIVING WORD OF LIFE, the LIFE GIVER who gave his spoken WORD LIFE.)

       49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

       50. THIS is the BREAD which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

       51. I am the LIVING BREAD which came down from heaven: if any man eat of THIS BREAD, he shall live for ever: and the BREAD that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

       52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (again the Jews MISUNDERSTOOD Jesus and THOUGHT that Jesus was going to give his LITERAL FLESH to eat. The Roman Catholic church still MISUNDERSTAND this passage of scripture and falsely teach that the BREAD and WINE actually and literally change in SUBSTANCE to the LITERAL FLESH and BLOOD of Jesus. Please read the study “Is the doctrine of TRANSUBSTANTIATION BIBLICAL?)

       53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

       54. Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

       55. For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

       56. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.

       57. As the living Father has sent me, and I live BY the Father (every man shall not live by bread ALONE, but BY every WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Jesus came to SPEAK the WORDS of his God and Father in order to bring ETERNAL LIFE to those who BELIEVE and OBEY this BREAD or these LIVING WORDS that came down out of heaven from God the Father): so he that eats me, even he shall live by me. (in other words, Jesus is comparing EATING with LIVING. So ask yourself WHAT die Jesus EAT of his Father that caused him to LIVE of be GIVEN eternal LIFE? The answer is that Jesus lived BY the WORDS of his God and Father and Jesus SPOKE these WORDS that he himself received from the Father teaching us that we shall ALSO be given ETERNAL LIFE in so be that we live BY the WORDS of Jesus.)

       58. THIS is THAT BREAD which CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of THIS BREAD shall live for ever. (In other words, the THIS BREAD is the TEACHING or the WORDS of Jesus that he himself RECEIVED from his God and LIVING FATHER in heaven. Remember in verse that Jesus said I am the BREAD of THE LIFE that came down from heaven)

       59. These THINGS (these matters of UTTERANCE or these WORDS) said he in the synagogue, as he TAUGHT in Capernaum.

       60. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? (SOME of the disciples along with others THOUGHT that Jesus was LITERALLY saying that they must eat HIM in order to be saved. Others realized that Jesus was speaking of DYING, but they could not figure out WHY the MESSIAH should DIE. This was a HARD teaching to UNDERSTAND, but his closest disciples STUCK with Jesus to HEAR him out to explain these HARD sayings. So I encourage YOU my readers and seekers of the TRUTH to read and study all the studies that I have written on this subject of the TRINITY so that you can weigh ALL the evidence BEFORE you draw a final conclusion as what you choose to believe.)

       61. When Jesus knew (or PERCEIVED) in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Does this offend you?

       62. What and if you shall SEE the Son of MAN ASCEND UP where he was BEFORE? (this is yet another verse used to TRY and prove that Jesus PREXISTED WITH Almighty God as the SON of God or as God the SON, the so called second person of the trinity in order to try and prove that Jesus is THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF. We will look at this verse more closely in the next section, but for now I will point out that this verse says the Son of MAN and NOT the SON OF GOD that SHALL be seen by his disciples ASCENDING UP where he was BEFORE. So again WHEN did the apostles SEE the Son of MAN ascend up into heaven? The answer is forty days AFTER Jesus DESCENDED BACK DOWN to the earth AFTER Jesus was crucified, rose from the grave and ASCENDED UP to heaven for the FIRST time to receive his reward of ETERNAL LIFE that was one of the prizes of joy that was set before Jesus that strengthened him to ENDURE the cross to die for SINNERS like you and I ONCE were before we accepted Jesus as our savior. Please read the study “HOW YOU CAN LIVE YOUR LIFE FREE FORM SIN!”)Also please know and understand that the Son of MAN could NOT have PREEXISTED for all eternity without BEGINNING, because mankind was CREATED and therefore had a BEGINNING. Nor could Jesus have PREEXISTED as the SON OF God for all eternity WITHOUT BEGINNING, because a SON is BEGOTTEN or BORN, or BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE where the SON never existed before EXCEPT in the MIND and PLAN of Almighty God to ONE DAY bring forth his only BEGOTTEN SON into the world by his SPOKEN WORD. So the only way that I myself can understand that Jesus preexisted was as the WORD of God. Please read the study “JOHN 1:1-THE WORD WAS GOD!”)

       63. It is the SPIRIT that quickens (or it is the eternal Holy Spirit being Almighty God the Father himself who MAKE ALIVE his WORDS to BE or to BECOME what God has SPOKEN forth to BECOME.); the flesh (physical food) profits nothing: the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, THEY are SPIRIT, and THEY are LIFE. (it is the bread of life or the leaven of life, or the DOCTRINE of life, or the TEACHING of life, or the WORDS of life that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN that were GIVEN to JESUS to SPEAK FORTH as a PROPHET and SERVANT of Almighty God the Father. And NOT that Jesus was LITERALLY a PREEXISTING Spirit being as God the SON the so called second person of the trinity. The WORD was SENT down from heaven by the angel Gabriel and was SPOKEN to the virgin Mary. And then when Mary AGREED to the SPOKE WORD of Almighty God by saying BE it DONE unto me ACCORDING to your WORD, then the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God was MADE to become a HUMAN BEING in which Almighty God the Father DWELT IN when the eternal Holy Spirit descended from heaven in the form of a dove to ANOINT or DWELL IN his SON Jesus to EMPOWER his SON to preach the gospel and do all the WILL of his Father who BEGOT his SON into the world.)

       64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (This verse does NOT mean that simply because Jesus KNEW from the beginning that Jesus therefore must be ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF. The word translated as “knew”here literally mean “PERCEIVED”. In other words, Jesus PERCEIVED by Almighty God the Father who DWELT IN him who should betray him. The beginning could mean from the very moment Jesus chose Judas, or it could mean anytime BEFORE that actual event took place. You see, Jesus was GIVEN revelation knowledge all through his ministry. Please read the record of the transfiguration where Jesus is TOLD plainly what death he should die. Before this time Jesus only knew what he read from the scriptures and PERCEIVED by the Holy Spirit who DWELT IN him to lead and guide Jesus into all truth.)

       65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

       66. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

       67. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will you also go away?

       68. Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? YOU (or you are the ONLY one to) have the WORDS of eternal life. (Jesus was THE ANOINTED TEACHER sent by Almighty God as the BREAD of LIFE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN to TEACH mankind the WORDS of eternal life. This is what John 6:38 means when Jesus said I COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. Jesus was saying that he was being sent by his God and Father to TEACH the WORDS of eternal life and what we MUST believe in order to forgiven of our past sins to be place back into a right relationship with Almighty God so that the Father could DWELL IN us in the same way that Almighty God the Father DWELT IN his SON Jesus to EMPOWER his SON to do the WORKS that his God and Father SENT his SON to do. And one of those WORKS was to TEACH us the WORDS of eternal life so that we would believe on the name of the SON OF Almighty God to endure unto the end to receive eternal life in the world to come.)

       69. And WE (the very disciples of Jesus who were EYEWITNESSES of Jesus) BELIEVE and are SURE that you are THAT CHRIST, the SON OF the living God. (all through the New Testament you will find that the very apostles and disciples of Jesus dis NOT believe and confess or teach that Jesus was the One TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, but rather they clearly and plainly taught that Jesus is the SON OF almighty God the Father whom his God and Father ANOINTED. This is what the word CHRIST means, to be ANOINTED by Almighty God with his very own self same eternal Holy Spirit in order to be EMPOWERED to do the WORKS that God has sent us to do.)

       70. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

       71. He spoke of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.”


         So then, from the light of the whole word of God I conclude that Jesus knew that the scriptures spoke of HIM, so Jesus knew that he was MIRACULOUSLY BORN by the LIVING SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God. Yes Jesus said, I come down from heaven, but Jesus also said, I am the living bread. This means that the WORDS of Almighty God the Father are WORDS of LIFE. The SAME SPOKEN WORD of life that brought forth life in the womb of the VIRGIN Mary is the SAME LIVING WORD that the Father gave his SON Jesus to speak forth to the people. In other words, Jesus was saying that he was the CHRIST, the PROPHESIED one to come without saying it directly. So to ME, I do not see that any of these verse that we have looked at prove without a doubt that Jesus preexisted as the SON OF Almighty God being God the SON, the second person of then trinity as some dogmatically demand that these verses mean without fail. I my self believe that Jesus preexisted as the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God that came down from heaven and was SPOKEN to the VIRGIN Mary and was MADE ALIVE in the womb of Mary to be born the Son of MAN.

         Let us take a look at the next verse in 1 Corinthians 15:47 where Jesus is said to be the Lord FROM heaven.

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       VERSE #6.

DOES 1 CORINTHIANS 15:47

THE SECOND ADAM IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN”

PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?



         Does 1 Corinthians 15:47 prove without a doubt that Jesus preexisted for all eternity without beginning as God the SON the second person of the trinity?

Here is the verse in question.


       “The first MAN is of the earth, earthy: the second MAN is the Lord from heaven.”


         First of all the question is NOT whether or not Jesus PREEXISTED, because most every Christian believes that Jesus preexisted in some way. But rather the question is did Jesus preexist ALONG SIDE Almighty God as God the SON as the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus teach?

         Those who teach the doctrine of the trinity dogmatically demand without fail that this verse proves without a doubt that Jesus preexisted as the Lord of heaven, God's Son who is CO ETERNAL and CO EQUAL with Almighty God the Father.

         But what does the word of TRUTH teach us? Let us read this verse in the CONTEXT of where it is found to see what this verse is truly teaching us. Please read 1 Corinthians 15:12-52 where the main SUBJECT in the RESURRECTION and being given new SPIRITUAL IMMORTAL BODIES of flesh and bone like our Lord Jesus Christ was given after his resurrection from the dead.


       “Now if Christ (or now if the ANOINTED ONE) be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (so the main subject throughout this entire passage of scripture is teaching that Jesus was indeed raised from the dead and given a new spiritual immortal body to give us assurance that we also shall be raised from the dead and be given a glorified immortal body of flesh and bone just like Jesus)

       13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ ( the ANOINTED ONE) not risen:

       14. And if Christ (the ANOINTED ONE) be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

       15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ (the ANOINTED ONE): whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

       16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ (the ANOINTED ONE) raised:

       17. And if Christ (the ANOINTED ONE) be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins.

       18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

       19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ (the ANOINTED ONE), we are of all men most miserable.

       20. But now is Christ (the ANOINTED ONE) risen from the dead, and become the FIRST fruits of them that slept. (Jesus the anointed one is called the FIRST BORN from the dead and the FIRST BORN among many brethren, and the FIRST BORN of every creature where all these verses are speaking of Jesus being the FIRST HUMAN BEING to be raised from the dead AND GIVEN IMMORTALITY.)

       21. For since by MAN came death, by MAN came ALSO the resurrection of the dead. (this verse clearly teaches us that Jesus NEEDED to be a MAN, the Son of MAN a HUMAN BEING in order to redeem mankind back to Almighty God)

       22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (or even so in the ANOINTED MAN Jesus) shall all be made alive.

       23. But every man in his own order: Christ (or the ANOINTED MAN Jesus) the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's (those who believe that Jesus is the SON OF God and the Son of MAN who was ANOINTED by his God and Father) at his coming.

       24. Then comes the END (speaking of the END of the 1000 year reign of Jesus), when he (speaking of Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, EVEN the Father;(Here in this verse Almighty God is CLEARLY and PLAINLY identified as being the FATHER to which Jesus his SON commits the kingdom of God back into his Father's hands) when he (speaking of Almighty God the Father) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

       25. For he (Jesus) must reign, till he (Almighty God the Father) has put all enemies under his feet (under his Son's feet).

       26. The LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH (which is destroyed in the lake of fire after the 1000 year reign of Jesus).

       27. For he (Almighty God the Father) has put all things under his feet (The feet of his SON Jesus). But when he (the Father) said all things are put under him (his SON Jesus), it is manifest (CLEARLY shown, clearly revealed, clearly made known) that he (Almighty God the Father) is EXCEPTED, which did put all things under him (His SON Jesus).

       28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be SUBJECT unto him (Almighty God the Father) that put all things under him (Jesus the SON OF Almighty God the Father), that God may be ALL in ALL. (So from this passage of scripture it is clearly made perfectly clear that Jesus is UNDER and SUBJECT to his God and Father the ONLY ONE TRUE MOST HIGH ALMIGHTY God the FATHER even after the 1000 year reign of Jesus ruling and reigning in his Father's kingdom that was GIVEN to the SON to reign. So then, DURING the earthly ministry BEFORE Jesus became obedient unto death on the cross Jesus was UNDER and SUBJECT to his God and Father. Then AFTER Jesus was HIGHLY EXALTED by his God and Father to rule at his Father's side Almighty God was still over his SON, but Jesus was GIVEN ALL POWER over every thing else. Then AFTER the 1000 year reign of Jesus he will commit the rule of his Father's kingdom back into his Father's hands and Almighty God the Father will resume his full power and authority over ALL including his SON Jesus. So then, the word of TRUTH at NO time EVER teaches us that Jesus is CO EQUAL with his God and Father. Therefore for ME, I must REJECT the FALSE teaching of the doctrine of the trinity. You are free to do as you desire, but before you make you final decision I implore you to consider the WHOLE matter.)

        29. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? (Remember that Paul is teaching about FALSE teachers. In verse he spoke of the false teaching that there was NO resurrection and now Paul is speaking out against those FALSE teachers that baptize in proxy for the dead. The Mormons follow this FALSE teaching of baptizing for the dead)

       30. And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

       31. I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

       32. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage it me, if the dead rise not? Let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

       33. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

       34. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

       35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? (The Jehovah's Witnesses FALSELY teach that Jesus rose from the dead as a SPIRIT being and that he has ALREADY returned INVISIBLY and is presently reigning. This cannot possibly be true, because the first thing Jesus is going to do is destroy all the weapons of war and eliminate war. Second the word of TRUTH clearly says that EVERY EYE shall SEE him and I can tell you for one that my eyes have NOT yet seen the physical bodily return of Jesus)

       36. Thou fool, that which you sow is not quickened, except it die:

       37. And that which you sow, you sow not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

       38. But God gives it a body as it has pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

       39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. (this is one verse that can be used to show that there may very well be animals in the world to come. I say his because some dogmatically demand that there will be absolutely NO animal in heaven or the world to come. All I know for sure is that the lamb will lay down with the wolf and the lion with eat grass like the ox, so it sounds like to me there WILL be animals in the world to come.)

       40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

       41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory.

       42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

       43. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

       44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (the natural body comes FIRST and then it is raised to become a spiritual body)

       45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was MADE (created) a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (the literal Greek reads, “...the first human Adam became into soul living and the last Adam into SPIRIT making live” In other words, AFTER Jesus became obedient unto death on the cross his God and Father HIGHLY EXALTED his SON Jesus and GAVE his SON to have IMMORTALITY in himself even as his Father has always possessed immortality and ALSO Jesus was GIVEN power and authority to MAKE ALIVE the dead. So the first Adam was made a living mortal soul with a mortal human body and the Jesus the last Adam was made an IMMORTAL SPIRIT with an IMMORTAL BODY of flesh and bone)

       46. Howbeit that was NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual. (in other words, the SPIRITUAL BODY or the SPIRITUAL MAN was NOT FIRST, but rather that which was FIRST is the NATURAL HUMAN BODY. That is to say, Jesus did NOT come down out of heaven with a SPIRITUAL BODY FIRST to then become a HUMAN being in a NATURAL EARTHLY BODY to then be HIGHLY EXALTED to be given a SPIRITUAL BODY. This makes absolute NO sense to ME to say the Jesus ALWAYS existed WITH God the Father as God the SON who was EQUAL in every way with God the Father from all eternity past to one day come down out of heaven to become a MAN to die for the sins of the people only to be exalted back to a level that is UNDER and now SUBJECT to his God and Father. The word of TRUTH teaches us that there was a JOY set before Jesus that encouraged and strengthened Jesus to ENDURE the cross. So I ask you my dear brothers and sisters in out Lord Jesus Christ WHAT king of JOY is it to be DEMOTED from being EQUAL with God the Father DOWN to being UNDER and SUBJECT to God the Father. Can you not see, that Jesus needed to be a MAN to redeem mankind, because it was a MAN who disobeyed God to bring sin into the world and death by sin.)

       47. The first man (NOT the first Adam, but the FIRST MAN or the FIRST BODY) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (or the SECOND BODY) is the Lord from heaven. (Acts 2:36 clearly teaches us that Almighty God the Father MADE his SON Jesus to be BOTH Lord and CHRIST. “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified , both Lord and Christ.” And Philippians 2:4-11 agrees with this interpretation that Jesus die not become HIGHLY EXLATED until AFTER he became obedient to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Please read the study “Philippians 2:6- A TRINITARIAN DILEMMA!” So to ME Paul is speaking AFTER the fact when he identifies the second man or the second Adam as the Lord from heaven. Jesus has already come the FIRST time and NOW the disciples are WAITING the RETURN of the Lord FROM heaven. Also the Greek word “EK or EX” that is TRANSLATED as “FROM” can is also translated as “IN” in other places in the Bible, so this verse could just as easily read “...and the second man is the Lord IN heaven.”, which is where our Lord is at this present time. This Greek word also denotes ORIGIN or more precisely SOURCE and is translated many ways such as from, WITH, BY, and OF heaven. I personally do not know any Christian who denies that the SOUCE of the ORIGIN of Jesus came from HEAVEN. There is NO DOUBT that the SOURCE of ORIGIN of the human Jesus did indeed come FROM heaven above. This interpretation agrees with all the other verses that clearly teach us that Jesus came OUT FROM God and that the SON is OF God. No one is doubting the MIRACULOUS BIRTH of Jesus who was begotten OF Almighty God the Father and BORN of a HUMAN woman, a VIRGIN. The question at hand is did Jesus always preexist as God the SON as the doctrine of the trinity dogmatically teaches?)

       48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

       49. And as we have borne the image (the likeness, the form) of the earthy, we shall also bear the image (the likeness, the form) of the heavenly.

       50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

       51. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all (all who are good and faithful believers in Jesus the Christ, the anointed one of Almighty God the Father shall) be changed (given new glorified immortal spiritual bodies of flesh and bone just like Jesus was given and now has being made both Lord and Christ),

       52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (speaking of the 7th trumpet of Revelation immediately after the time of great tribulation): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

       53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on IMMORTALITY.”


         So then, from the CONTEXT it is made perfectly clear that the doctrine of the trinity is a FALSE teaching, because the word of TRUTH in this passage of scripture without fail teaches us that Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God is NOT EQUAL with his God and Father.

         And the Greek word “EK or EX” in the verse in question denotes SOURCE of ORIGIN of our Lord Jesus Christ, which teaches us that Jesus did indeed HAVE a BEGINNING and therefore CAME OUT FROM Almighty God being the SOURCE of his ORIGIN.

         Also we learned that this same Greek word that is TRANSLATED as “...and the second MAN is the Lord “FROM” heaven” could just as easily be translated as “and the second MAN is the Lord “IN” heaven.”

         Again this study in God's word is NOT to learn whether of not Jesus preexisted, because all Christians believe that Jesus preexisted in SOME way. But rather this study is to determine whether of not the DOCTRINE of the trinity is proven by this verse. In other words, does this verse in 1 Corinthians 15:47 prove without fail that Jesus preexisted as God the SON, the second person of the trinity, who is CO EQUAL and CO ETERNAL with Almighty God the Father.

         So then, I myself have to conclude that the CONTEXT of this verse in question proves that Jesus did NOT preexist as God the SON as the doctrine of the trinity FALSELY teaches.

         Let us move on to Galatians 4:4 the next verse in question.



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        VERSE #7.

DOES GALATIANS 4:4



IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME GOD SENT FORTH HIS SON”



PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?



         In order to try and prove the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus some Christ use the REASONING that is order for God to SEND is SON, then the SON must ALREADY EXIST in heaven with Almighty God the Father for all eternity without a beginning.

         Let us begin this study in God's word by reading Galatians 4:4.


       “But when the FULLNESS of the TIME was COME, God SENT FORTH his SON, made of a woman, made under the law,”


         Now while this logic that the SON must ALREADY EXIST BEFORE the SON can be SENT FORTH is TRUE it does NOT DOGMATICALLY DEMAND without fail that the SON OF Almighty God preexisted for all eternity without a BEGINNING. In other words, this verse here in Galatians 4:4 clearly and plainly teaches us that this SON that was sent forth was MADE of a woman and MADE UNDER the law and NOT that the SON OF god was sent forth from heaven down to the earth TO BE MADE of a woman, made under the law.

         But rather this verse means that Jesus was ALREADY born of a woman under the law and THEN in the FULLNESS of THE TIME when it was time for Jesus to be ANOINTED with the eternal Holy Spirit of Almighty God to preach the gospel then Almighty God SENT FORTH his SON out into the world to do all his will.

         In the fullness of the time when Jesus began to be about 30 years of age God SENT FORTH his SON Jesus out into the world to PREACH the gospel. And in John 17:16-22 Jesus says that in the same way that God SENT his SON INTO the world Jesus SENT his disciple INTO the world.


       “They (speaking of the disciples of Jesus and all believers in Jesus) are NOT of the world, EVEN AS (or in the SAME WAY AS) I am NOT of the world. (Jesus being NOT of this world does NOT DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that it means that the SON OF God was BORN IN HEAVEN in eternity past BEFORE the SON was SENT down ONTO the EARTH to be BORN of a woman under the law and THEN SENT OUT INTO the world to preach the gospel. But rather this phrase simple means that we follow and obey the voice from ABOVE and do not partake of the sinful things of this world. It means that we as Christians are BORN from ABOVE by the eternal Holy Spirit the DWELT IN Jesus the SON OF Almighty God.)

       17. Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.

       18. AS you have SENT me into the world, EVEN SO (or in the SAME WAY) have I ALSO SENT them into the world. (Can you not see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, that this phrase “SENT INTO the world” does NOT DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that it mean being SENT down from heaven ONTO the EARTH. But rather this phrase simply means being SENT OUT INTO the world. In the fullness of the time Jesus was sent out into the world to preach the gospel.)

       19. And for their sake I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

       20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

       21. That they ALL may be ONE; AS YOU, Father, are IN me, and I in you, that they ALSO may be ONE in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. (Jesus being ONE with the Father does NOT DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that Jesus is THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God as some FALSELY teach. But rather being ONE with the Father simply means that they AGREE as ONE. Their WILLS have merged to be UNITED in AGREEMENT for the SAME purpose.) 

       22.  And the glory which thou gave me I have given them; that they may be ONE, EVEN AS (or in the SAME WAY as) we are one:”


         Also please consider the Almighty God was NOT always a Father and that Jesus was NOT always his SON, but rather the SON was BEGOTTEN OF Almighty God, and THEN Almighty God BECAME a Father on a certain DAY that he BEGOT his SON.

         Please read Hebrews 1:1-14.


       “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in TIME PAST unto the fathers by the prophets,(In other words, God did NOT speak at ANY time in the OLD Testament BY his SON. Therefore any CLAIMS that the Angel of the Lord was the preexisting Jesus is a FALSE claim according to this passage of scripture. Verse on here says that in times past God spoke by his PROPHETS and in verse 2 we are clearly and plainly told that God in these LAST DAYS has spoken to us BY his SON.)

        2. Has in these last days spoken unto us BY his SON, whom he has appointed heir of all things, BY whom also he made the worlds; (Some Christians use this verse to try and prove that Jesus created all things. But the TRUTH of the matter is that Almighty God the Father is the creator of all things and the Almighty God created all things FOR his Son Jesus.

You see, the Greek word “DIA” (#1223) that is translated as BY also means through, FOR, BECAUSE OF, and FOR the SAKE OF. The root meaning is the CHANNEL of an act. The REASON for why the act was made. The means of, The GROUND or reason by which something is done or not done, By reason of, on account of, because of, for this reason. Also the LITERAL translation of this verse is as follows “on last one of the days these talks to us in Son whom he places tenant of all through whom also eons he MAKES” In other words, this verse is actually speaking about the ages to come that God makes through his Son Jesus and NOT this present world being made through a preexisting SON of Almighty God. You see the Father has GIVEN all authority and POWER to rule and reign over the WORLD TO COME for a 1000 years to MAKE all the decisions that need to be made. This is what this verse is speaking of rather that the beginning of all creation. We will cover Revelation 3:14 in the next section where Jesus says “I am the BEGINNING of CREATION”. Also please read the study “EPHESIANS 3:9-11- DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?” for a SOUND BIBLICAL teaching on who the WHOLE word of God teaches is the creator of all things.)

       3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of his PERSON (Jesus the SON OF God is the EXPRESS IMAGE of the person of God), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (now some Christians try and use this verse to try and prove that Jesus as the Word is upholding all things, but in truth the LITERAL Greek is again speaking of the world to come where Jesus is GIVEN all power to rule and reign for a 1000 years. Hers is the LITERAL translation, “Who being from radiance of the esteem and emblem of the understanding of him CARRYING ON besides the ALL to the declaration of the ability of him through himself cleansing making of the sins of us is seated in right hand of majesty in heights.” As you can see Jesus if GIVEN POWER to carry on to rule in his Father's kingdom at his Father's right hand. Also this verse teaches us that Jesus over came sin through the POWER of the Father.)

       4. Being MADE so much BETTER than the ANGELS, as he has BY inheritance OBTAINED a more excellent name than they. (Hebrews 2:7-9 and Psalms 8:3-5 teaches us that the first estate of Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God was made a little LOWER or INFERIOR to the angels. And Philippians 2:4-11 teaches us that it was only AFTER Jesus as the Son of MAN became obedient to do all the will of HIS God and Father even to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world that the Father HIGHLY EXALTED his SON Jesus to INHERIT a more excellent name that is above all of God's creation. Basically Jesus is SECOND in rank and power only to his God and Father the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God.)

       5. For unto which of the ANGELS said he (Almighty God the Father) at ANY TIME, You are my SON, THIS DAY have I BEGOTTEN you? (First of all this verse should prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus did NOT preexist as a ANGEL, which some like the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses FALSELY teach, because this verse clearly says that God never said at ANY TIME to one of the ANGELS to be his SON. Secondly the phrase “THIS DAY I have BEGOTTEN you” clearly teaches us that Jesus the SON OF Almighty God was BEGOTTEN or brought forth into existence on a CERTAIN DAY, which teaches us without a doubt that the SON did INDEED HAVE a BEGINNING. The every words “SON”and “BEGOTTEN” demand a BEGINNING for Jesus the only BEGOTTEN SON OF God. So then, the ONLY way that Jesus could have preexisted is as the WORD. We will go deeper into this further on in this study of God's word as to HOW Jesus may have preexisted as the Word.) And again, I WILL BE to him a Father, and he SHALL BE to me a SON?

       6. And AGAIN, WHEN he brings in the FIRST BEGOTTEN into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him. (this verse is speaking of the SECOND COMING of Jesus when Almighty God brings his SON Jesus BACK into the world to rule and reign for a 1000 years. This is WHEN every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord TO the GLORY OF Almighty God the Father. And all the angels shall worship the SON OF God.)

       7. And of the angels he says, Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

       8. But unto the SON he said, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. (Those who teach the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus use this verse to TRY and prove that Jesus IS GOD, in that, Jesus is the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God. No it is TRUE that Jesus has been HIGHLY EXALTED to be a God who is UNDER and SUBJECT to his God and Father, this verse does NOT prove that Jesus is THE ALMIGHTY God, who ALONE is the FATHER, because the VERY NEXT verse clearly and plainly teaches us that the Father is God OVER his SON Jesus.)

       9. You (my SON) have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; THEREFORE (or for this VERY REASON) God (THE GOD, Almighty God the FATHER), EVEN YOUR God, (clearly without a doubt show us that Almighty God the FATHER is God EVEN OVER his SON Jesus, who HIS God and Father says to his SON Jesus EVEN YOUR God) has ANOINTED you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

       10. And, You, Lord (speaking of Almighty God the FATHER and NOT his SON Jesus. Please see the study “EPHESIANS 3:9-11-DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?”, but for now know that the word “Lord” here can mean a lord as a common man, who is s land owner, or it can mean Lord and referring to Jesus who was MADE to be both Lord and Christ. Of in cam mean LORD as referring ONLY to YHWH, the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God the FATHER. Also know that verse 10 here is QUOTED from Psalm 102:25 verse is quoting Psalm which is definitely speaking of Lord as being Almighty God the FATHER. So if Lord referred to Almighty God the Father in the Old Testament in Psalm 102, then you can be sure without a doubt that the name Lord here in Hebrews 1:10 is STILL YET referring to Almighty God the Father as the CREATOR who), in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

       11. They shall perish; but you remain; and they all shall wax old as does a garment;

       12. And as a vesture shall you fold them up, and they shall be changed: but you are the same, and your years shall not fail.

       13. But to which of the ANGELS said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool? (This ONE verse alone should prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus did NOT preexist as an ANGEL as some FALSELY teach, because God said to his SON, his only BEGOTTEN SON to sit on his right hand. It was the SON OF Almighty God whose first estate was MADE to be a little LOWER that the ANGELS. But then after Jesus the Son of MAN became obedient to do all the will of HIS GOD and Father, then Almighty God the Father HIGHLY EXALTED his only BEGOTTEN SON to inherit a place far ABOVE the ANGELS.)

       14. Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”


         So then, from Hebrews chapter on we can eliminate Jesus preexisting as a ANGEL like is taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons, because to NONE of the ANGELS did God ever say, “You are my SON, this day have I begotten you.”

         We can also eliminate Jesus preexisting as the SON OF God as well clearly seeing that Jesus was BEGOTTEN on a CERTAIN DAY. Therefore the only way that Jesus could have preexisted is as the Word.

         So then, this leaves us with only TWO possibilities as to HOW Jesus preexisted as the Word.


         POSSIBILITY #1.


         Jesus preexisted as the Word, where the Word was an actual LITERAL divine Spirit being separate from Almighty God, which Almighty God chose to use to create all things.


         POSSIBILITY #2.


         Jesus preexisted as the Word, where the Word was God's very OWN Word that was WITHIN HIMSELF that God SPOKE FORTH to create ALL things.


         Now personally I myself choose possibility #2 where the Word that was WITH God is referring to God's very own SPOKEN WORD that Almighty God brought forth all things including his SON Jesus by SPEAKING FORTH his thoughts and PLANS in the FORM of his WORD and the spoken WORD BECAME the expressed IMAGE of what God desired to BE.

         The Bible says that Jesus CAME OUT FROM God, which agrees with the SPOKEN WORD possibility.

Jesus understood that the scriptures SPOKE of HIM so he perceived form the scriptures that his ORIGIN was FROM ABOVE and came through God's SPOKEN WORD. This is why Jesus said, “I CAME FROM HEAVEN.” Jesus knew fro the scriptures that the SOURCE of his ORIGIN came from heaven above.

         Let us take a brief look at the LITERAL translation of John 1:1, which says,


       “In beginning was the SAYING and the SAYING was TOWARD THE God and God was the SAYING”

         Here is the link to the Greek to English Interlinear Bible that I use:                 

         http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh1.pdf


         The word “TOWARD” as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary means; 1. in the direction of, 2. in a position facing, 3. somewhat before in time, approaching, 4. with regard to, in relation to, 5. in furtherance of partial fulfillment of. 6. BY WAY OF ACHEIVING; WITH A VEIW TO, 7. IN PROGRESS or IMMINENT, TRACTIBLE, Coming, favorable, future. Also the word “TOWARD” carries the meaning of forward motion, which again agrees with the interpretation of the Word being the SPOKEN WORD.

         Now in some translations read “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was “WITH” THE God, and God was the Word.” The English word translated as “WITH” in the King James Version is the Greek word “PROS”, Strong's #4313, that is translated as “the SAYING was “TOWARD” THE God” in the LITERAL translation. This Greek word has many meanings such as to, for, near, with the God, was toward the God, was BECAUSE OF the God, was or is BELONGING TO the God, is PERTAINING TO the God, was or is NIGH UNTO the God like Romans teaches us that the word is NIGH you and even in your MOUTH, and the SAYING was WITHIN THE God.


         Now any one of the definitions could be used in this verse. I personally believe that the best definition is “the SAYING was WITHING THE God, and God was the SAYING.”

         To me this AGREES perfectly with the OLD Testament where God says,

                “I AM THAT I AM”

         The LITERAL translation of this verse in Exodus 3:14 is as follows:


       “I SHALL BECOME WHAT I AM BECOMING”


         To me this AGREES PERFECTLY with the DEFINITION of the Greek word "PROS" in John 1:1, which could be translated as follows:


     “In beginning was the SAYING and the SAYING was WITHIN THE God and God was the SAYING.



          All of creation was brought into existence by or through the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God so WHY try and force the Word in John 1:1 to now mean a LITERAL separate divine CO EQUAL and CO ETERNAL Spirit being along side Almighty God who created all things? All the verses in the New Testament that SEEM to be saying that Jesus created all things actually says that Almighty God created all things BY Jesus, which the writers MAY have INTENDED the reader to understand that Almighty God created all things BY his WORD, his SPOKEN WORD. Please read the study "EPHESIANS 3:9-11- DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?".

         You see the disciples of Jesus KNEW that the SOURCE of the miraculous VIRGIN birth of Jesus was FROM GOD who SENT his WORD DOWN FROM HEAVEN ABOVE by the Angel Gabriel who SPOKE FORTH God's WORD to Mary. And then when Mary AGREED to God's SPOKEN WORD, then the WORD was MADE flesh in the womb of Mary to be BORN as the Son of MAN.

         Is this not what the WHOLE word of God teaches us? To ME there is just NOT enough SOUND BIBLICAL evidence to support the INTERPRETATION that the Word was a SEPARATE SECOND PERSON or divine Spirit being that was WITH Almighty God for all eternity WITHOUT ever having a BEGINNING as some dogmatically DEMAND is the ONLY way to INTERPRET John 1:1.

         Let us move on to the next verse in question, which is Revelation 3:14 where Jesus says, “I am the BEGINNING of CREATION”.

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       VERSE #8.



DOES REVELATION 3:14


THE BEGINNING OF THE

CREATION OF GOD”


PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?


       Here is Revelation 3:14.

       “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING of the CREATION of God;”


         Now some Christians INTERPRET this verse to mean that Jesus is God the SON who was actually the CREATOR of ALL things. And they use verses like Ephesians 3:9-11 to try and support their INTERPRETATION. Please read the study EPHESIANS 3:9-11 DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS? for a deeper understanding that Almighty God is the CREATOR who created all things FOR or FOR the SAKE OF his SON Jesus having his Son in his MIND of PLAN as the reason for creating all things.

         Other Christians INTERPRET this verse in Revelation 3:14 to mean that Almighty God the Father is the actual creator who USED his SON Jesus as the MEANS BY WHICH God created all things. But this interpretation does not agree with the rest of God's word, because the SON OF Almighty God was BEGOTTEN or brought INTO EXISTENCE on a certain DAY. Again please read the above mentioned study which shows and explains the verse where Almighty God says THIS DAY I have BEGOTTEN you.

         Along this same line of thinking other Christians understand that the Jesus did NOT preexists as the SON OF Almighty God, but rather Jesus preexisted as the Word. Therefore Jesus as the WORD created all things. Now the Jehovah's Witnesses teach along this line of reasoning saying that Almighty God Jehovah CREATED Jesus as a SPIRIT BEING called the WORD, who then created all other things.

         But really none of these INTERPRETATION truly agree with the WHOLE word of Almighty God. For you see no matter HOW you INTERPRET the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus you can never make Jesus to have ALWAYS preexisted as an IMMORTAL being or so called second person of the TRINITY, because 1 Timothy 6:13-16 clearly teaches us that ALMIGHTY God ALONE has always possessed IMMORTALITY.


       “I give you charge in the sight of God, who quickens ALL things (or in the sight of Almighty God the father the ONLY SOVEREIGN God who makes alive ALL things), AND before Christ (the ANOINTED ONE) Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

       14. That you keep this commandment (or that you keep this principle or this teaching) without spot, UNREBUKABLE, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

       15. Which in his TIMES (speaking of both the first and second comings of Jesus) he shall SHOW, WHO is the blessed and ONLY POTENTATE, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

       16. Who ONLY has IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light which NO MAN can approach unto; whom NO MAN has SEEN, NOR CAN SEE: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.”


         Now all one needs to do is THINK this through for YOURSELF and ask yourself two simple questions:

         #1. Did men SEE Jesus?

         #2. Has any man other than Jesus SEEN Almighty God the FATHER?

         To ME the answer is obvious that Almighty God the FATHER is the ONLY one who has ALWAYS possessed IMMORTALITY. Therefore there can be NO SECOND person of the so called TRINITY who has ALWAYS been IMMORTAL for all eternity.

         You see the TRUTH of the matter is that Jesus, the SON OF God was GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE or IMMORTALITY by his God and Father. Please read John 5:26,27, which clearly and plainly teaches us that Jesus did NOT preexist as an IMMORTAL being as a SECOND person of the so called TRINITY, because he need to be GIVEN IMMORTALITY after he became obedient unto death on the cross.


       “For AS (or in the SAME WAY that) the Father HAS life IN himself; SO HAS he GIVEN TO the Son to HAVE LIFE IN himself;

       27. AND has GIVEN him authority to execute judgment ALSO, BECAUSE he is the Son of MAN.”



         So then, to ME to only way that I myself have found to interpret Revelation 3:14 where Jesus says that he is the BEGINNING of the CREATION of God is to say that this verse means that Almighty God has his SON Jesus in his MIND to bring forth into existence BEFORE Almighty God THOUGHT of any other thing or being to create.

         Let us take a look at some other translations of the verse.

         Here is Revelation 3:14 from the Bible in Basic English.


       “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness, the HEAD of God's new order.”


         Here is Revelation 3:14 from the Common English Bible.


       “Write this to the angel of the church in Laodicea: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the RULER of God's creation.”


         Here is Revelation 3:14 from the Holman Christian Satndard.


       “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the ORIGINATOR of God's creation says:”


         Here is Revelation 3:14 from the New International Readers.


       “Here is what I command you to write to the church in Laodicea. Here are the words of the One who is the Amen. What he gives witness to is faithful and true. He RULES OVER what God has created. He says,”


         Here is Revelation 3:14 from the New Revised Standard.


      “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ORIGIN of God's creation.”


         Here is Revelation 3:14 from the Message Bible.


       “Write to Laodicea, to the Angel of the church. God's Yes, the Faithful and Accurate Witness, the FIRST of God's creation, says:”


         Here is Revelation 3:14 from the Young's Literal Translation.


       “And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the CHIEF of the creation of God;”


         The Greek word that is translated as beginning in the King James Bible is “ARCHE”, which means commencement, or chief. And carries the meaning of order or rank. In other words, this Greek word can mean FIRST, as in, the FIRST creation that God created. Or FIRST, as in, the CHIEF or HIGHEST being that Almighty God has created. And another possible meaning is that God created all things where God FIRST had his SON Jesus is his mind and plan as to one day bring forth into existence. The AGREES with other verses that in TRUTH teach us that Almighty God created all things FOR THE SAKE OF his SON Jesus. But no matter which of these three possible interpretation is chosen the end result is the same, and that is Jesus was CREATED at some point in time and therefore could not possibly be THE ALMIGHTY God. The WHOLE word of God in truth teaches us that Jesus CAME OUT FROM God.

         This Greek word “ARCHE” also means a BEGINNING. To COMMENCE means to BEGIN. But again the meaning of begin or origin or originator in the light of the WHOLE word of God means that the IDEA of having a SON was the ORIGINATOR or the active cause of Almighty God creating all things. In other words, Almighty God himself BEGAN to create all things with is SON Jesus is MIND as the FIRST or PRIMARY focus for the REASON of ALL creation.

         You see the Greek word “DIA” that is translated as “BY” in Ephesians 3:9-11 where this verse SEEMS to be saying that ALL things were created BY Jesus Christ is actually saying that all things were created FOR Jesus Christ or FOR the SAKE OF Jesus Christ.


       “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, WHO created all things BY (DIA) Jesus Christ:”


         You see, the Greek word “DIA” (#1223) that is translated as BY also means through, FOR, BECAUSE OF, and FOR the SAKE OF. The root meaning is the CHANNEL of an act. The REASON for why the act was made. The means of, The GROUND or reason by which something is done or not done, By reason of, on account of, because of, for this reason.

         The base meaning of the word "CHANNEL" is to direct something towards something. The whole idea of to channel is direct everything that one is channeling to a specific point or place. To channel is to direct, to guide along some desired course. So then the ACT of creation is DIRECTED towards the ETERNAL PURPOSE of Almighty God of having a SON who would become the everlasting Father or more precisely God's SON would become the Father or the beginning of ETERNAL LIFE being the FIRST born from the dead among many brethren.

         Again please read the study “EPHESIANS 3:9-11 DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?” for a deeper understanding that Almighty God himself is the creator of all things and that his SON Jesus was the REASON FOR which the Father created all things.

         So then I myself must conclude that Revelation 3:14 does NOT prove without fail that Jesus ETERNALLY preexisted for all eternity as the so called SECOND person of the TRINITY as God the SON. At best this verse can be interpreted as the Word being the MEANS by which all things were created BY Almighty God HIMSELF where Jesus came forth OUT FROM God when God SPOKE FROTH his WORD by the Angel Gabriel to the VIRGIN Mary. But this verse in Revelation says that Jesus is the BEGINNING of GOD'S creation, and NOT that Almighty God USED Jesus as his means to create all things. In other words, to me this verse is better interpreted and Jesus being the FIRST or the CHIEF or the PRINCIPLE REASON of God's creation as to WHY God HIMSELF created all thing through his SPOKEN WORD.


         Let us continue this study in God's word by reading the next verse in question 1 Corinthians 10:4.



=======================================================


       VERSE #9.


DOES 1 CORINTHIANS 10:4



AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST”



PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?





         Some Christians dogmatically teach that without fail Jesus PREEXISTED as the second person of the trinity or as the Son of Almighty God the Father. Other teach that Jesus PREEXISTED as an ANGEL who then changed form to become the Son of Almighty God the Father. And yet others teach that Jesus PREEXISTED as a SPIRIT being along side or WITH Almighty God as the WORD.

         But what does the WHOLE word of God teach us?

         Let us begin this study in God's word by reading this verse is question.

         Here is 1 Corinthians 10:4.



       “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”



         Now some Christians interpret this verse to dogmatically without fail mean that Jesus PREEXISTED in the Old Testament, because Paul clearly identifies the rock the Moses smote or hit with a stick in the wilderness was CHRIST. And then they say that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, because they take other Old Testament verses which clearly and plainly teach us that Almighty God Yehweh himself is the ROCK and conclude since Paul say Jesus is the rock and these other verse say that Almighty God is the rock, then therefore Jesus must without fail be THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF.

         But again is this SOUND BIBLICAL teaching based upon the WHOLE word of Almighty God?

         As I have said may times that any verse when taken out of context and viewed alone and apart from the whole word of God may SEEM to be something that it is not truly saying.

         So then let us read this verse in question being left in the context of where it is found. Please read 1 Corinthians 10:1-11.



       “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

       2. And were all baptized unto Moses (some Bible scholars teach that Moses was a type or figure of Jesus Christ and we as Christians are baptized in Jesus as the people of Israel were baptized unto Moses) in the cloud and in the sea;

       3. And did all eat the same SPIRITUAL meat;

       4. And did all drink the same SPIRITUAL drink: for they drank of that SPIRITUAL Rock (Paul is teaching us a SPIRITUAL lesson from these things written in the Old Testament) that followed them: and that Rock was CHRIST (the ANOINTING of Almighty God or more specifically the ETERNAL Holy Spirit who DWELT IN Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God the Father. Whenever you read the word “CHRIST” do not automatically substitute the name Jesus for the word “CHRIST”, because the word Christ is not Jesus' last name. But rather this word means that Jesus is the chosen one whom Almighty God the Father DWELT IN to empower his Son to do the works that he sent his So to do. Please read the study “JESUS THE CHRIST” for a deeper understanding of what I mean by this.).

       5. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

       6. Now these things were OUR EXAMPLES, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

       7. Neither be you idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

       8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

       9. Neither let us tempt CHRIST (the ANOINTING or more precisely, the ETERNAL SPIRIT, who DWELT IN Jesus the SON OF Almighty God and Father. You see the truth of the matter is that Almighty God the eternal Holy Spirit himself was that one who stood before Moses on the rock that he instructed Moses to strike with the rod of Aaron. Please read Exodus 17. So what Paul is teaching us hear it for us NOT to tempt the Holy Spirit, the CHRIST, or the ANOINTING within us.), as some of them also tempted (Almighty God the eternal and invisible Spirit that went before them as a pillar of cloud by day and went behind them or followed them as a pillar of fire by night. In other words, CHRIST ro Almighty God did not DWELL IN the people of Israel as he now DWELLS IN us as believers in his Son Jesus, but rather was with them in the wilderness, But they tempted God saying is the Lord with us or not?), and were destroyed of serpents.

       10. Neither murmur you, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

       11. Now ALL these things happened unto them for EXAMPLES: and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”



         So then, from the CONTEXT we clearly see that the literal physical rock in the Old Testament was a SPIRITUAL lesson TEACHING us of the coming the CHRIST, the coming of the ANOINTED ONE of Almighty God to be our Messiah, our savior, the atonement for our sins, our redeemer. But Paul was not just comparing that physical rock only as an EXAMPLE written for US, but ALL these things HAPPENED unto God's people FOR OUR EXAMPLE and OUR admonition.

         In other words, Jesus did NOT PREEXIST as that physical rock any more than Jesus preexisted as a literal physical LAMB that was literally ALREADY slain from before the foundation of the world, which would be BEFORE any lambs were ever created. NO! A thousand times NO! These were written for our EXAMPLE. These verses that SEEM to be teaching that Jesus preexisted in some form are TYPES, SHADOWS, and FIGURES or PROPHESIES foretelling of the coming of Jesus to be the Messiah or the savior, whom Almighty God himself would raise up from AMONG the PEOPLE. Jesus preexisted in PROPHECY foretelling us of his coming. These things HAPPENED and were WRITTEN for our example and for our admonition or WARNING.

         I mean THINK this through for yourself. IF SO BE that Jesus PREEXISTED in some literal form whether it be as the Son of Almighty God being the second person of the trinity, or whether it be that Jesus preexisted as an ANGEL or some SPIRIT being called the WORD that was WITH God, but yet was ONE and the SELF SAME BEING as Almighty God himself, then WHY does the word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible teach us in Luke 2:52 that Jesus INCREASED in FAVOR with BOTH Almighty God the Father and man?

         Luke 2:52.



       “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.”



         Now IF SO BE that Jesus himself had always PREEXISTED with Almighty God or was Almighty God himself, then this would mean that Jesus would have ALREADY had or possessed ALL the favor he had always had preexisting with God from all eternity past. But yet the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and favor WITH GOD.

         Other verses like John 17:5 that are used to dogmatically demand without fail that Jesus preexisted from all eternity past and therefore concluded that Jesus had NO BEGINNING ever and thus is CO ETERNAL with Almighty God the Father can be interpreted in other ways that do NOT contradict any other part of God's word.

         John 17:5



       “And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”



         Now again when one views this one verse ALONE and APART from the REST of God's word it does indeed SEEM to be saying that Jesus PREEXISTED before the world was created with Almighty God as a SEPARATE BEING from Almighty God the Father who shared the GLORY that belonged to Almighty God himself.

         But when this verse and others are interpreted in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of God, then it becomes clear that Jesus UNDERSTOOD the SCRIPTURES that spoke OF HIM being the one prophesied to come. In other words, Jesus understood of the glory that the SON OF God would be glorified with by the Father was prophesied from the BEGINNING. Jesus understood that the scriptures spoke of HIM so when he read Proverbs 8 Jesus saw the THOUGHTS and PLANS of Almighty God an how his SON REJOICED before him in the inhabitable part of the earth BEFORE the earth was ever created for mankind.

         Please take a close look at Proverbs 8:22-31



       “The Lord (YHWH Almighty God the owner and possessor of all, who we now know as the Father) possessed (acquired, owned, brought forth, formed, created) me (Jesus or more precisely the WORD, as in, the Word literally being a second separate divine Spirit being, OR the Word being the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God, which to me agrees better with the WHOLE word of God.) in the beginning of his way, before HIS works of old (speaking of Almighty God's works).

       23. I (Jesus, the SON in the form of God's WORD that he spoke through his prophets and had them write it down for all generations) was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

       24. When there were no depths, I (Jesus, the SON in the form of his WORD) was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

       25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I (Jesus, the SON, in the form of his WORD was) brought forth:

       26. While as yet HE (Almighty God who we now know as the Father, but was not yet actually a Father as yet, because his SON Jesus was NOT YET BORN or begotten seeing that HE Almighty God) had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

       27. When HE (Almighty God who we know know as the Father) prepared the heavens, I (Jesus, the SON, in the form of the WORD only) was there: when HE (Almighty God the Father) set a compass upon the face of the depth:

       28. When HE (Almighty God the Father) established the clouds above: when HE (Almighty God the Father) strengthened the fountains of the deep.

       29. When HE (Almighty God the Father) gave to the sea HIS (God the Father’s) decree, that the waters should not pass HIS (God the Father’s) commandment: when HE (God the Father) appointed the foundations of the earth:

       30. Then I (Jesus, the SON in the form of the WORD. Remember that the LITER translation of John 1:1 is as follows: "In beginning was teh SAYING and the SAYING was WITHIN the God, and God was the SAYING.") was BY him,(or with his Father, the Word was WITH God in the THOUGHTS of God or came to be in existence as as result of God giving BIRTH to his FIRST SPOKEN WORD to bring forth a SPIRIT being as his SON that God called his WORD) as one brought up with him: and I (Jesus, the SON being in the form of the WORD whether that be the IMAGE of God's THOUGHTS or an actual separate SPIRIT being as some dogmatically demand.) was daily HIS delight, rejoicing always before HIM;

       31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of HIS earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.”



         One can readily see from this passage of scripture that Jesus himself is saying that Almighty God the Father was behind all that was created and that he, God's WORD WITHIN Almighty God of one day bringing forth his only BEGOTTEN Son was there with the one true God BEFORE the FOUNDATIONS of the EARTH as God's delight rejoicing before Almighty God IN the inhabitable part of the EARTH that had NOT YET been CREATED.

         So clearly to ME, Jesus as God's SON was with God at this time before the foundation of the world ONLY in God's THOUGHTS, in God's PLAN to one day bring forth his SON in to existence. The reason I say this is because HOW could Jesus rejoice before his God and Father IN the inhabitable part of the EARTH when the earth had NOT yet been created as yet EXCEPT in the MIND and the PLAN of ALMIGHTY God.

         So you see, when Jesus said glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began to me Jesus was praying to his God and Father, I am getting ready to go through a time very shortly Father that when I take on the sins of the world you are going to turn your back on me, so I pray that you return me to the glorious delight that you had for me before the world began and before I was ever BORN.

         You see, Jesus knew the scriptures spoke of him. Jesus knew that he was the chosen one sent by Almighty God to become that sacrifice for mankind because the Spirit of God taught him morning by morning from the scriptures. Jesus saw the END from the Scriptures, but he still had to BELIEVE. And because of the joy that was set before Jesus he endured the cross for us knowing that his God and Father is FAITHFUL to perform his spoken word. So then, because Jesus became obedient even unto death on the cross Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED his Son and GAVE him a name that is above every name.

         Also John 17:5 in the LITERAL Greek can be translated in a number of ways. First let us read this verse again from the King James version.



       “And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I HAD with you BEFORE the world WAS.”



         Please notice that I have emphasized three words. The word that is translated as "I HAD" is the Greek word "ECHO" Strong's # 2192, which means to hold, to keep, or to be as a possession or as a condition. In other words, in the light of the rest of Gods's word Jesus is asking his God and Father to glorify him with the glory which God has promised and is holding in store for him. Thayer's Greek to English Lexicon defines this word to mean to have in store. Hebrews 12:1-4 teaches us that Almighty God set something that brought JOY in view before his Son Jesus which gave his SON strength to ENDURE the suffering of the cross.


       “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

       2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR (or BECAUSE OF) the JOY that was SET BEFORE him ENDURED the cross, despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

       3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself,lest you be wearied and faint in your minds.

       4. You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.”



         Now we as Christians have a PRIZE that is set before us to strengthen us to ENDURE unto the end that is RESERVED in heaven for us, so why is it so hard to see that Jesus was simply praying and asking God to glorify his Son with the glory that was being RESERVED in heaven for him.

         The word that is translated as "BEFORE" can also mean previous and the word that is translated as "WAS" also means "TO BE". Now some Bible scholars interpret John 17:5 to mean that Jesus was asking to be glorified with the glory which Almighty God the Father was HOLDING IN STORE for him to enjoy prior to the world yet to come. This interpretation does agree with the truth of the whole word of God which teaches us that Jesus is in heaven NOW in his glorified state sitting at the right hand of his Father on his Father's throne.

         But even if the writer did not mean the world to come and truly meant before the foundation of the world, the fact that a JOY was set before Jesus still holds true. In other words, Jesus asking the Father to glorify him with the JOY that was set before him still agrees with the whole word of Almighty God as we have already seen from Proverbs chapter 8 where Jesus rejoiced in the habitable place of the earth BEFORE the earth was every created.

         Proverbs 8:29-31.


       “When HE (Almighty God the Father) gave to the sea HIS (God the Father’s) decree, that the waters should not pass HIS (God the Father’s) commandment: when HE (God the Father) appointed the foundations of the earth:

       30. Then I (Jesus, the SON in the form of the WORD, because the word was WITHIN God.) was BY him,(or with his Father, the Word was WITH God in the THOUGHTS of God or came to be in existence as as result of God giving BIRTH to his FIRST SPOKEN WORD to bring forth a SPIRIT being as his SON that God called his WORD) as one brought up with him: and I (Jesus, the SON being in the form of the WORD whether that be the IMAGE of God's THOUGHTS or and actual separate SPIRIT being) was daily HIS delight, rejoicing always before HIM;

       31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of HIS earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.”



         1 Peter 1:3-13 teaches us that the prophets of old were desiring to look into this glory that was to follow in the world to come.



       “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

       4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, RESERVED in heaven for you,

       5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

       6. Wherein you greatly REJOICE, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

       7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and GLORY at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

       8. Whom having not seen, you love; in whom, though now you see him not, yet believing, you REJOICE with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

       9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

       10. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

       11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified BEFORE HAND the sufferings of Christ, AND the GLORY that should FOLLOW. (In other words, Jesus knew that the scripture spoke of HIM)

       12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

       13. Wherefore gird up the loins o your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto yo at the revelation of Jesus Christ;”



         I believe that Jesus UNDERSTOOD that the scriptures spoke of HIM and so Jesus knew that this GLORY was stored up in heaven being RESERVED for him. So in John 17:4 Jesus is simply asking his God and Father to glorify him with the ETERNAL LIFE that was reserved for him by his Father's side which was planned for his SON BEFORE the foundation of the world and certainly given to him before the world to come.

         Let us now read the entire chapter of John 17, all 26 verses, with the focus on John 17:22 where Jesus GAVE us the same GLORY that Jesus is ASKING in prayer to be GLORIFIED with the GLORY that he had BEFORE the world ever was by Almighty God the Father. But I want you to read this chapter with the Hebrew Jewish mindset that way that they talked and understood things. What I mean by this is that many things written in the Bible are written in the PAST tense, but yet they are speaking of a FUTURE event. In other words, the GLORY that Jesus was asking to be glorified with is the PROMISE of ETERNAL LIFE, which is the SAME glory that Jesus has ALREADY GIVEN US as believers.

         John 17:1-26

       “These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the HOUR is come; glorify your Son, that your Son also may glorify you: (In other words, Jesus is asking the Father to NOT leave his soul in hell, but to GLORFY him by RAISING him from the dead and GIVEN him the PROMISE REWARD of IMMORTALITY that was ordained before the foundation of the world.)

       2. As you have GIVEN him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him. (this is speaking of the second coming of Jesus where Jesus has been GIVEN the authority to give eternal life to all who have endure unto the end holding fast to their faith and obedience to the WORDS of Jesus that were sent down from heaven and given to Jesus to preach and teach to his fellow man. Jesus came to show us the FATHER and HIS WORDS.)

       3. And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that we must have BOTH the SON and the Father in order to receive eternal life. Therefore is we do NOT believe that Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God the Father, then we are NOT truly believing and obey what Almighty God desires us to believe and thus we do NOT have the Father either. This is why God rejected his chosen people the Jews who rejected that Almighty God had a SON. The same is true of the Muslims who do NOT believe that God has a SON. ONLY Christians believe that Almighty God has a SON. The WHOLE foundation of Christianity is that we believe that Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God the Father. So why do some churches dogmatically demand that Jesus is the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, when the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us that we must believe in BOTH? Jesus is saying, and THIS is ETERNAL LIFE that mankind must believe that YOU FATHER are the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God who sent your only begotten SON Jesus to die for their sins.)

       4. I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the WORK which you gave me to do. (in other words, Jesus is saying that he was that GOOD and FAITHFUL servant to do ALL that his God and Father led him to do so in the next verse Jesus is simply asking the Father for his reward of eternal life that was ordained from before the world was.)

       5. And now, O Father, glorify you me with your OWN SELF with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

       6. I have manifested your name unto the men which you gave me out of the world: yours they were, and you gave them me; and they have kept your word. (Please notice that verse 5 is sandwiched between two verse where Jesus is basically saying I have don all you have led me to do so NOW do what you promised to do if I obey you to do all your will. Glorify me with your OWN SELF. Glorify me with the same IMMORTAL LIFE that your yourself have always possessed. As to verse 6 mankind will not be actually given TO Jesus UNTIL the SECOND COMING of Jesus. Even the wicked of mankind will be GIVEN to Jesus to break in pieces with a rod of iron, while ONLY the RIGHTEOUS who are IN Jesus Christ will be GLORIFIED with the IMMORTALITY of Almighty God the Father who ONLY has always possessed immortality. John 5:26,27 clearly teaches us that Jesus was GIVEN IMMORTALITY by his Goad and Father AFTER Jesus FINISHED the works that the Father led him to do. Please read the study “John 5:18-JESUS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD”)

       7. Now they have KNOW that ALL THINGS whatsoever YOU HAVE GIVEN are OF YOU.

       8. For I have given unto them the WORDS which YOU GAVE ME; and they have received them, and have known SURELY that I CAME OUT FROM YOU, and they have believed that you did send me. (the apostle of Jesus most definitely BELIEVED that the SPOKEN WORD that CAME OUT FROM Almighty God did indeed BRING Jesus INTO EXISTENCE by the WORD, the SPOKEN WORD being SENT from heaven down to the earth with the angel Gabriel who SPOKE the WORD of God to the virgin Mary and then when Mary AGREED saying BE it done ACCORDING to your WORD, then the WORD, the SPOKEN WORD was MADE or BECAME ALIVE in the womb of Mary to be BORN the Son of MAN who would be called the SON OF the HIGHEST other wise the disciples of Jesus would have never written and preach this MIRACULOUS BIRTH of Jesus. Plain and simple Jesus ONLY preexisted in the MIND and PLAN of Almighty God who ORDAINED his COMING SON to BE brought into existence in the fulness of time. Jesus CAME OUT FROM the Father and was NOT Almighty God the FATHER HIMSELF any more that ALL of creation that CAME OUT FROM Almighty God the Father of ALL.)

       9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me; for they are yours.

       10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (everything Jesus is and has was GIVEN to him BY his God and Father the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God)

       11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be ONE, AS WE ARE. (Jesus is saying that he is leaving this world to ascend up to heaven to become ONE with the Father and he is praying that all believers will be KEPT unto that great and glorious day when we too shall be made ONE with the Father. The meaning of ONE here is speaking of being GLORIFIED with IMMORTALITY the same as Almighty God and NOT that we actually become one and the self same being as Almighty God the Father. Mormonism FALSELY teaches that we all shall PROGRESS to become God or many gods. Mormonism FALSELY teaches that Almighty God the Father was once a MAN who PROGRESSED to become Almighty God the Father. Please read the study “MORMONISM VERSES BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY!”)

       12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in you name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (some Christians who FALSELY teach that ALL of mankind will EVENTUALLY be SAVED argue that Judas was NOT LOST, but here in this verse Jesus says that Judas the son of perdition was lost. This FALSE teaching is called Universalism. Please read the study “IS UNIVERSALISM A SOUND BIBLICAL TEACHING?”)

       13. And now come I to you; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have MY JOY fulfilled in themselves. (Jesus is speaking of the JOY of IMMORTALITY and being HIGHLY EXALTED to sit on his Father's throne at his Father's right hand. So Jesus is saying that he gave us this same PROMISE of JOY to receive ETERNAL LIFE in the world to come. Jesus is praying that we be not deceived so that this promise of eternal life will be FULFILLED IN US in the same way that Jesus is believing that the Father will GLORIFY him with this GLORY of eternal life that was ordained for him from before the world was.)

       14. I have given them your word; and the world has hated them, because they are NOT of the world, EVEN AS I am not of the world. (this does NOT mean that we are ALIENS from another world, but rather that we are NOT of this present world of darkness and sin, because we OBEY the WORD of Almighty God and the WORDS of his SON Jesus who died for our sins to make us free from the bondage of sin. The world hates us because we preach AGAINST SIN and the darkness of this present world that blinds their eyes to the word of TRUTH. Jesus was NOT of this world the SAME WAY that WE are NOT of this world. This only difference is that Jesus became a MASTER of over coming sin to live his ENTIRE life WITHOUT sin. Whereas WE are still LEARNING. Please read the study “HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE FREE FROM SIN!”)

       15. I pray NOT that you should take them out of the world, BUT that you should KEEP them FROM the EVIL. (You see Jesus was IN the WORLD, but Jesus was NOT OF the world, in that he kept himself FROM EVIL that was IN the world.)

       16. They are NOT of the world, EVEN AS I am NOT of the world. (Some Christian churches DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that Jesus was PREEXISTED IN HEAVEN for ALL ETERNITY as God the SON, because Jesus said that he was NOT of the WORLD in John 8:23 “And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.” , but yet here in this verse Jesus plainly states EVEN AS or in the SAME WAY that I am ABOVE and NOT of this WORLD so ALSO are YOU from ABOVE and NOT of this WORLD. What Jesus is saying is that WE as BELIEVERS follow the voice and words form ABOVE and we do NOT follow to voice of the god of this present WORLD.)

       17. Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.

       18. AS you have sent me into the world, EVEN SO have I ALSO sent them into the world. (Some Christian churches DOGMATICALLY DEMAND that Jesus was SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN INTO the world by God the Father as a PREEXISTING God the SON who is CO EQUAL and CO ETERNAL with God the Father to be made a human being the Son of man and YET STILL REMAIN to be FULLY ALMIGHTY God and fully man at the same time. But yet the word of TRUTH clearly teaches us in this verse that in the SAME WAY that Almighty God SENT his SON Jesus into the world Jesus has ALSO SENT US INTO the world. So then, are we to believe that WE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AS WELL just like we are dogmatically taught is some churches that these same words in many other places in the Bible mean when they are speaking of JESUS being SENT INTO the world? NO! A thousand times NO! These words simple mean that Jesus and US are sent OUT into the world. These words have nothing whatsoever to do with a PREEXISTING Jesus up in heaven who was supposedly SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN INTO the world. To ME the only way that I myself can rationally see Jesus preexisting is in the MIND and PLAN of Almighty God to one day in the fulness of time to BRING FORTH his only BEGOTTEN SON into the world by his SPOKEN WORD that was ORDAINED from BEFORE the foundation of the world)

       19. And for their sake I sanctify myself, (Jesus sanctified himself THROUGH the ETERNAL SPIRIT, Almighty God, the FATHER who DWELT IN his SON Jesus to EMPOWER his SON to live WITHOUT SIN. Jesus also used the word of TRUTH, the promises WRITTEN in God's word to defeat and over come our enemy Satan, the devil. Jesus did this to be the lamb without spot or blemish to free us from the bondage of sin. His atonement cleansed us from all of our pasts sins so that the Father could also come and DWELL IN US so that we could be endued with POWER from on high to do the SAME works that Jesus did through the FATHER who DWELT IN him.) that (or so that, or in order that) they ALSO might be sanctified through the truth.

       20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them ALSO which shall believe on me through their word; (in other words, Jesus is prayed this prayer for EVERY BELIEVER in Jesus Christ being the SON OF Almighty God the Father who was SENT and ANOINTED by his God and Father to die for the sins of the whole world so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES shall NOT perish, but shall be GLORIFIED with ETERNAL LIFE in the world to come.)

       21. That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. (here in this verse we see that WE as believers are made to be ONE WITH Almighty God the Father is the SAME way the Jesus was saying that he was ONE with the Father in John 10:30, which is another verse used to try and prove that Jesus himself is THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God the FATHER, simply because Jesus said the words, “I and my FATHER are ONE”)Now if so be that this those words in John 10:30 prove that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God, the these words of Jesus in John 17:21 also prove that WE as believers are ALMIGHTY God as well. These are the SAME exact Greek words that are translated as ONE in BOTH of the passages of scripture. Please read the study called “JOHN 10:30- I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!” for a more in depth study on this subject of why the doctrine of the trinity is a FALSE teaching that took many centuries to develop and was never taught by Jesus nor his disciples)

       22. And the GLORY which you GAVE me I HAVE GIVEN them; that (or so that) they may be one, even as we are one: (Jesus is speaking of the PROMISE of ETERNAL LIFE that the Father GAVE to Jesus and now Jesus has GIVEN us this SAME promise of GLORY even though we have not yet received our GLORY of ETERNAL LIFE as yet)

       23. I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me. (this verse is speaking of our promised resurrection and being GLORIFIED with ETERNAL LIFE at the second coming of Jesus. It is only then that the WORLD will KNOW that Jesus truly is the MESSIAH.)

       24. Father, I will that they ALSO, whom you HAVE GIVEN me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my GLORY, which you HAVE GIVEN me (PAST tense and yet Jesus had NOT YET actually been GLORIFIED as yet): for (or BECAUSE) you loved me BEFORE the foundation of the world. (Jesus is speaking of his resurrection from the dead and his being GIVEN his new GLORIFIED immortal body of flesh and bone, which Jesus descend back down to the earth to show his disciples for forty days before Jesus ascended back up into heaven where he was before right after his resurrection. You see Jesus told Mary Magdalene NOT to touch hen BECAUSE he had NOT YET ASCENDED to his God and Father. BUT then later that same evening Jesus appeared to his disciples and asked them the TOUCH him to prove to then that he was NOT a SPIRIT of a GHOST, but rather that he had a BODY, a new GLORIFIED IMMORTAL BODY of flesh and bone.)

       25. O righteous Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me. (this teaches us that people can KNOW God without having preexisted in heaven with God from all eternity past. Jesus PERCEIVED from reading the scriptures and LISTENING to the voice of his God ad Father from above and little by little day by day INCREASED in wisdom and favor of God. Jesus came to understand that the scripture spoke of HIM. In other words, Jesus LEARNED to KNOW God and he TAUGHT his disciples to KNOW God as well.) 

       26.  And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”


         So then, all the verse that we have taken a CLOSER look at thus far have NOT proven without fail the DOCTRINE of the trinity where Jesus preexisted in heaven as God the SON for all eternity with Almighty God the Father and was CO EQUAL with Almighty God the Father.

         But rather the CONTEXT of every one of these verses along with the rest of God's word prove without fail that the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus are FALSE teachings, which need to be DRASTICALLY reformed and rewritten or thrown out and rejected altogether.

         Now please read Psalm 89:19-27, which clearly teaches us that Almighty God himself is THE ROCK and God OF his SON Jesus.


         Psalm 89:19-27.


       “Then you (My God and My Father) spoke in VISION to your holy one (the Bible teaches us that Jesus separated himself to pray to his God and Father. And we are also told that it would take all the books in the world to tell of Jesus and even then all would not be told. So even though the New Testament does not specifically tell us of Jesus having a vision and what Jesus saw in that vision we still know that Almighty God spoke to his SON Jesus through visions and revelations by the Holy Spirit. So then Almighty God spoke to Jesus in a VISION), and said, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one CHOSEN OUT of the people.

       20. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: (as in other places David is a SHADOW or a FIGURE or a PROPHECY or the coming Messiah, Jesus, the Son of Almighty God. In other words, through VISIONS and other means Almighty God REVEALED to Jesus that the scriptures spoke of HIM.)

       21. With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

       22. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

       23. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

       24. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

       25. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

       26. He (speaking of Jesus) shall cry unto me, You are MY father, MY God, and the ROCK of my salvation. (Jesus was saved from hell. God did not leave the soul of his Son Jesus in hell, but rather saved his soul alive by resurrecting his Son from the dead and giving his Son eternal life.)

       27. Also I will make him my FIRSTBORN, higher than the kings of the earth.”



         In verse 27 we clearly see that this passage of scripture is a PROPHECY of Jesus whom Almighty God will make to be his FIRSTBORN child. Jesus is described as being the FIRSTBORN of every creature in Colossians 1:15, the FIRSTBORN from the dead in Colossians 1:18, and the FIRSTBORN among MANY brethren in Romans 8:29. And Jesus is the only one whom the Bible teaches us that Almighty God HIGHLY EXALTED and gave a name about every other name to be made a King of kings and a Lord of lords.

         You can read these verses later, but for now the focus of this study is to determine to WHOM the ROCK of the Old Testament is referring. Is the ROCK speaking of YEHWEH the Almighty, or is the ROCK referring to Jesus? And if so be that the ROCK is referring to Jesus, then does this prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God himself? In other words, does 1 Corinthians 10:4 prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus himself PREEXISTED? And if so be that Jesus himself is proven to have preexisted, then does this prove that Jesus himself is THE ALMIGHTY God?

         Here in Psalm 89 we can clearly and plainly see that Jesus is NOT the ROCK, but rather Jesus is calling HIS God and Father the ROCK of his own salvation. There are several places in the New Testament where Jesus did indeed fulfilled this prophecy by crying out to his God and Father calling Almighty God in MY God, MY God, why have your forsaken me in Matthew 27:46, touch me not, for I ascend to MY Father and your father, and to MY God and your God in John 20:17, and then in Revelation 3:12 we read where Jesus called Almighty God his God four times in that single verse, which to me makes it blatantly clear that Almighty God the Father is God over his Son Jesus.



       “Him that overcomes will I (Jesus) make a pillar in the temple of MY God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY God, and the name of the city of MY God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY God: and I will write upon him my new name.”



         Now some or the following verse clearly and plainly refer to Almighty God as being THE ROCK, as in, being a fortress or a defense to be trusted. Then in other verses in the Old Testament speaking of the rock that Moses smote with the rod of Aaron are most definitely referring to the coming Messiah who will give LIVING WATER to those who believe in him as the Son of Almighty God who died for their sins.


         Exodus 17:1-6 speaks of the rock of Horeb that Almighty God himself stood before to bring forth the life giving water when Moses smote the rock.

         Numbers 20:1-13 speaks of the rock of Horeb that Moses was commanded to SPEAK to, but Moses smote the rock twice.

         Deuteronomy chapter 8 speaks of the rock or Horeb.

         Deuteronomy chapter 32 is speaking of Yehweh.

         1 Samuel 2:2 is speaking of Yehweh.

         2 Samuel chapter 22 is speaking of Yehweh.

         2 Samuel 23:3 is speaking of Yehweh.

         Psalm 18 is a prophecy of Jesus who is speaking to HIS God as being his ROCK.

         Psalm 28 is a prophecy of Jesus crying out to his ROCK.

         Psalm 31 is a prophecy of Jesus calling upon his ROCK for strength. Now some INTERPRET verse 10 to mean that the person speaking hear could not be Jesus because this person sinned. But if you read this Psalm carefully you will see that men were seeking to take this mans life. Did not Jesus PRAY in the garden for strength right before he surrendered himself to be crucified? Did take Jesus freely take upon OUR sins as his OWN when he bore OUR sins upon the cross? Well this Hebrew word that is translated as iniquity carries that meaning of looking at the PUNISHMENT of sin. So another was to communicate verse 10 would be to say, my strength fail because of the punishment that awaits me.

         Psalm 42 is speaking of God being the rock.

         Psalm 61 is speaking of God being the rock higher than I.

         Psalm 62 is speaking of God as being our only rock.

         Psalm 72 is a prophecy of Jesus calling out to his rock.

         Psalm 78 is the rock in the wilderness that was broken for the people of Israel. They remembered that Almighty God was their rock. It is not so much the rock itself, but what the rock provided for the people. What I mean by this is that Almighty God himself created the rock, created the water stored in or beneath the rock, then provided a way for the rock to be broken in order to bring forth water to give LIFE to SAVE the his people. Please read the study “Titus 2:13 WHO IS OUR SAVIOR GOD OR JESUS?”.


         Psalm 92:15 is speaking of Yehweh.

         Psalm 94 is speaking of Almighty God Yehweh.

         Psalm 95 is speaking of Yehweh.

         Psalm 105 teaches us that Almighty God sent Moses who smote or hit the rock, but it was Almighty God himself who was the one who opened the rock to gush forth waters like rivers.

         Psalm 114 again teaches us that is was Almighty God himself who turned the rock into standing water.

         Isaiah 17 is speaking of God being the rock.

         Isaiah 48:21 teaches us again that God is the one who caused the water to come out of the rock.

         Jeremiah 23:29 likens God's word to a hammer that breaks the rock.


         In 1 Peter 2:8 and Romans 9:33 Jesus is called a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to those who REJECT him as being the MESSIAH that give to those who BELIEVE upon him LIVING WATER to drink.

         So in the same way that Jesus is MADE to be both Lord and Christ, Jesus is RAISED UP by HIS God be a savior of the people, HIGHLY EXALTED by HIS God and Father to be MADE a King of kings, Jesus is MADE to be “A” rock that was broken so that whosoever DRINKS the water of LIFE that is brought forth by Almighty God from the rock shall LIVE and not perish.

         In other words, the whole word of God clearly teaches us that the literal physical “ROCK” in the wilderness was a TYPE or a FIGURE of the coming MESSIAH, Jesus, the CHRIST, whom Almighty God himself sent and gave to be broken for our sin so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of Almighty God shall not perish by shall have eternal life.

         So then, while 1 Corinthians 10:4 says that ROCK is CHRIST and the Old Testament says that THE ROCK is Almighty God HIMSELF does NOT dogmatically mean without fail that Jesus is THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF as some FALSELY conclude.

         NOR does this mean that Jesus PREEXISTED as the SECOND person of the trinity as some falsely teach.

         But rather this verse simple means that the verses in the Old Testament speaking of the literal physical rock that was broken and brought forth water was a TYPE or a FIGURE that was a PROPHECY of the coming Messiah, Jesus, the CHRIST, who would become obedient to do all the will of his God and Father to be HIGHLY EXALTED and given a name above all names so that every knee shall bow and confess that Jesus Christ in the anointed one to the glory of Almighty God the Father.

         In truth every thing that Jesus was, is, or ever shall be, was GIVEN to him by his God and Father the ALMIGHTY. So the living water that Jesus will give to all the faithful believers was COMMITTED unto him to do so by his God and Father who is over ALL including his SON Jesus.

         Again I do not teach these truths to bring Jesus down, but rather to show YOU who you truly are being IN CHRIST Jesus. I teach the HUMANITY of Jesus so you can see that the eternal Spirit, Almighty God the Father himself DWELT IN his SON Jesus and that this SAME eternal Spirit, Almighty God the Father HIMSELF now DWELLS IN YOU as a BELIEVER in Jesus being the SON OF Almighty God the Father.

         Please read 1 John 4:6-16.


       “We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of TRUTH, and the spirit of error.

       7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.

       8. He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

       9. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God SENT his only begotten SON into the world, that we might live through him.

       10. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and SENT his SON to be the propitiation for our sins.

       11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

       12. No man has seen God at any time (because God is SPIRIT and he is INVISIBLE so that NO man can EVER SEE him). If we love one another, God DWELLS IN us, and his love is perfected in us.

       13. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and HE IN US, BECAUSE he (Almighty God the Father) has GIVEN us of his Spirit. (this verse along with many others verse clearly teaches us that Almighty God and the Holy Spirit are ONE and the SELF SAME BEING. So we have Almighty God the FATHER who IS the Holy Spirit and we have God's SON Jesus.)

       14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

       15. Whosoever shall CONFESS that Jesus is the SON of God, God DWELLS IN him, and he in God. (No where in the word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible, have I myself ever found that we are commanded or taught to CONFESS or BELIEVE that Jesus HIMSELF IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God. But here we are CLEARLY and PLAINLY taught to believe and CONFESS that Jesus is the SON of Almighty God the Father.)

       16. And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God IN him.”



         And if so be that God is IN US, then most assuredly God is WITH us. And since God is with us he must surely be for us. And since God is for us, then who can be against us. Jesus said that WORKS that he did YOU shall do ALSO. Almighty God the Father is our ROCK and Jesus his SON his our sure FOUNDATION.

         So in conclusion I my self do not see that 1 Corinthians 10:4 proves without a doubt that Jesus preexisted for all eternity without a beginning as God the SON the second person of the trinity. Let us move on to the next verse in question, Micah 5:2, which is INTERPRETED to mean that the ORIGIN of Jesus is from ETERNITY.



=======================================================

       VERSE # 10.


DOES MICAH 5:2


WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OLD, FROM EVERLASTING”


PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXITED?


         Some Christians use Micah 5:2 to try and prove without fail that Jesus preexisted as the SON OF Almighty God for ALL ETERNITY as God the SON without ever having a BEGINNING.

         Other Christians, who have understood the the SON OF God was BEGOTTEN to mean without a doubt that Jesus as the SON OF God did INDEED have a BEGINNING, but the ORIGIN of the BEGINNING of the Son of God was of OLD from EVERLASTING. In other words, some Christians believe that Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God did INDEED have a BEGINNING, but his BEGINNING was NOT when Jesus was BORN of the VIRGIN Mary, but rather the INITIAL BEGETTING of Jesus was so far in eternity past that you might as well say that Jesus the Son of God has existed forever and the use Micah 5:2 to try and prove this teaching.


         So then, which teaching is the TRUTH of the whole word of God? Is either of these two teachings a sound Biblical teaching that agrees with ALL of God's word? Or is there yet a third teaching that perhaps is even a more sound Biblical teaching than either of these two above teachings?

         Let us begin this study in God's word by reading Micah 5:2 with the FOCUS on the words that those who teach the above two doctrines EMPHASIZE to try as support their doctrine.


       “But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings FORTH HAVE BEEN have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING.”


         Then they present their argument that MAN can NOT SAVE himself and that ONLY God can SAVE US. THEREFORE Jesus HAD to BE GOD in order for him to be our SAVIOR. Then they quote some verses which SEEMS on the surface to support their point of view. They often quote Isaiah 43:11 first to show without a doubt the Almighty God ALONE is our SAVIOR and that we have NO OTHER savior but the ALMIGHTY.



       “I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH or the ALMIGHTY God); and beside me there is NO savior.”



         Then they quote a verse from the NEW Testament where our SAVIOR is clearly speaking of Jesus the SON OF Almighty God the Father. They often quote Titus chapter 2 verse 10 and verse together to show that Jesus is our SAVIOR, so therefore Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF in the FLESH being FULL Almighty God and fully man at the same time.



       “Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

       13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious APPEARING of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; (speaking of the SECOND COMING of Jesus and being INTERPRETED by some as the GREAT God HIMSELF being our savior Jesus Christ. That is to say some INTERPRET this verse to dogmatically without fail mean that our savior Jesus Christ IS THE GREAT God MEANING that Jesus IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF.)

       14. Who GAVE HIMSELF for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”



         In other words, some dogmatically demand that ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF gave HIMSELF to die for the sins of mankind. Those who teach that Jesus preexisted as the SON OF Almighty God from all eternity past whether God's SON had a BEGINNING or whether God's SON never had a BEGINNING both claim that Jesus IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, because in the OLD Testament it is clearly seen that ONLY Almighty God Yehweh is our SAVIOR and that there is NO OTHER SAVIOR other than Almighty God HIMSELF and yet in the NEW Testament Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God the Father is said to be our SAVIOR. Therefore they conclude the Jesus the SON OF Almighty God IS THE ONE TRUE GOD who ONLY is our SAVIOR.

         Then SOME Christians conclude based upon the PREVIOUS conclusion that since Jesus, the Son of Almighty, God IS ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF, then the SON OF Almighty God had to have ALWAYS EXISTED for all eternity WITHOUT ever having a BEGINNING.

         But yet OTHER Christians realize that that conclusion can NOT be true, BECAUSE the terms “SON”and “BEGOTTEN” demand that the SON OF Almighty God the Father HAVE a BEGINNING.

BUT WHEN was the BEGINNING of Jesus the SON OF Almighty God the Father being BROUGHT FORTH take place?

         This is where Micah 5:2 comes into play. You see, some Christians read the phrase, “FROM EVERLASTING” and conclude that the ORIGIN of Jesus being brought FORTH had to be from ETERNITY PAST, because Micah 5:2 says, WHOSE goings FORTH were of from OLD, FROM EVERLASTING. Therefore some conclude that Jesus has always preexisted as the SON OF Almighty God the Father FROM all ETERNITY past.


         But is this TRULY what this verse is teaching us that Jesus was begotten of God in ETERNITY past? So the question now becomes:

       #1. Did Jesus the SON OF Almighty God ALWAYS exist as GOD the SON, the SECOND person of the TRINITY without ever having a BEGINNING as the doctrine of the trinity teaches dogmatically demanding that Jesus is CO ETERNAL with God the Father, where neither the Father nor his Son had a BEGINNING, but have ALWAYS existed as IMMORTAL beings. The doctrine of the trinity also teaches that Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God the Father is CO EQUAL with God the Father where neither is greater than nor less than the other. OR

       #2. Was Jesus the SON OF Almighty God the Father BEGOTTEN OF God in ETERNTY PAST? OR

       #3. Was Jesus BEGOTTEN as the SON of God WHEN the Word was MADE FLESH and BORN of the VIRGIN Mary?


         Let us now take a CLOSER look at Micah 5:2 being LEFT in the CONTEXT of where it is found to see what this verse is TRULY teaching us in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God the Father.

         Micah 5:1-6.


       “Now gather yourself in troops, O daughter of troops: he has laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel (The judge of Israel here is speaking of Jesus the long awaited coming King of Israel. Please see Micah chapter 4.) with a rod upon the cheek (this is a prophecy of the long await coming King of the Jews their MESSIAH. Matthew 27:29,30 is one of the fulfillment of this prophecy of Jesus who is smote on the cheek with a reed. “And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand [the symbol of a ruler]: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! 30. And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.” The gospel of Luke says that the smote him on his face.).

       2. But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah (speaking of the little town of Bethlehem where Jesus was BORN of the virgin Mary), yet OUT of YOU shall HE (speaking of the COMING SON OF God to BE BORN in Bethlehem SHALL he, Jesus) COME FORTH UNTO ME that is to be RULER in Israel (this wording is important to the TRUE meaning of this verse. In other words, this COMING FROTH UNTO God is speaking of the FIRST COMING of Jesus when the Word of God came down from heaven by the angel Gabriel to be SPOKEN to the virgin Mary. And when Mary agreed to the SPOKEN Word of Almighty God the Word, the SPOKEN word that was WITHIN God from the beginning was now in the fullness of the time MADE to be ALIVE in the womb of Mary to be BORN the Son of MAN who was to be called the SON of the HIGHEST); whose (speaking of the yet coming SON OF God) GOINGS FORTH (please notice that the GOINGS forth are PLURAL speaking of BOTH the FIRST and the SECOND COMINGS of Jesus. In other words, BOTH of the PROPHESIED GOINGS FORTH of Jesus, the SON OF God and COMING KING of Israel) have been from of OLD, from everlasting.

       3. THEREFORE will he give them UP (or BECAUSE the Jews reject the FIRST GOING FORTH of Jesus as the coming King and deliverer and had there Messiah crucified Almighty God gave his chosen people UP. That is to say blindness in part has come over the eyes of Israel), UNTIL the time that she which travails has brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.(this is speaking of the time of great tribulation when Israel shall travail in pain until the cry out to be saved. God's people Israel will travail as a woman in birth, until their Messiah is BROUGHT FORTH speaking of the SECOND GOING FORTH of Jesus.)

       4. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

       5. And this MAN shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he (the Assyrian, the ANTICHRIST) shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. 

       6. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he comes into our land, and when he treads within our borders (verses 4-6 are speaking of the SECOND COMING of the SECOND GOING FORTH of Jesus will destroy the antichrist and the armies of Islam that fight against Israel. Please read the study "ISLAM IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST!").”


         So then, from the CONTEXT you can clearly see that this verse in question Micah 5:2 is PROPHECY of the GOINGS forth of the coming Messiah that had it ORIGIN from OLD, from ANCIENT times speaking of before the foundation of the world.

         The Bible teaches us that the LAMB was SLAIN from BEFORE the foundation of the world, but this does NOT LITERALLY mean that Jesus was crucified and died for or sin BEFORE mankind was every created. But rather the ORIGIN of God's PLAN of salvation was of from OLD, FROM EVERLASTING or from ANCIENT times.

          What this verse is TRULY teaching us is that the ANCESTRY or the LINAGE from which Jesus would be BORN was ordained by God in ancient times and NOT that the SON OF God was ACTUALLY BEGOTTEN in ancient times. Please read Micah 5:2 from some other translations and you will clearly see what I mean.

           Here is Micah 5:2 from the Bible in Basic English.


       “And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the FAMILIES of Judah, out of you one WILL COME to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been PURPOSED from time past, from the eternal days.”


         From this translation it is made clear to us that the goings forth of Jesus were PURPOSED from time past before these goings forth were to take place, from eternal days. Now whie the Hebrew words translated as eternal days can mean from everlasting or from eternity past these words also mean from ANCIENT days, from OLD times, and from the beginning of the world.


         Here is Micah 5:2 from the Common English Bible.


       “As for you, Bethlehem of Ephrathah, though you are the least significant of Judah's forces, one who is to be a ruler in Israel on my behalf WILL COME OUT from you. His ORIGIN is from remote times, from ANCIENT DAYS.”


         From this translation along with the other translation that we have already looked at we clearly see that the ORIGIN of Jesus the Messiah WILL COME OUT of the family line of Judah, which was PURPOSED to BE from long ago from ANCIENT DAYS.


         Here is Micah 5:2 from the Complete Jerusalem Bible.


       “But you, Beit-Lechem near Efrat, so small among the CLANS (or FAMILIES) of Y'hudah, out of you WILL COME FORTH to me the future ruler of Isra'el, whose ORIGINS (plural meaning the TWO GOINGS FORTH of Jesus the coming King of Israel speaking of the FIRST and SECOND COMINGS of the Messiah) are far in the past, back in ANCIENT TIMES.”


         Again the two coming of the Messiah were PURPOSED or were ORDAINED in ANCIENT TIMES but not without fail from all eternity past.


         Here is Micah 5:2 from the Good News Translation.


       “The Lord says, Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose FAMILY LINE goes back to ancient times.”


        From this translation we can see that the ORIGIN of the Messiah is speaking of his ANCESTRY or his FAMILY LINE being out of Judah.


         Here is Micah 5:2 from the New International Reader Bible.


       “The LORD says, "Bethlehem, you might not be an important town in the NATION of Judah. But OUT of YOU WILL COME a ruler over Israel for me. His FAMILY LINE goes back to the early years of your nation. It goes all the way back to days of long ago." Bethlehem was also called Ephrathah.”


         This verse clearly shows us that the ORIGIN of the Messiah or the King that is PROPHESIED TO COME WILL COME OUT of the FAMILY LINE of the nation of Judah and his ORIGIN was PURPOSED all the way back to days of long ago.


         Here is Micah 5:2 from the Young's Literal Translation.


       “And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth -- to be ruler in Israel, And his COMINGS FORTH [are] of old, From the days of antiquity.”


         From this translation we can see that this verse is speaking of the FIRST AND SECOND COMINGS of the Messiah and that his ORIGIN or his FAMILY LINE will be from JUDAH.

         Now I would like you to read Isaiah 13:6-10, which is a PROPHECY of the SECOND GOING FORTH of Messiah, or SECOND COMING of the Jesus to execute the wrath of Almighty God.


       “Howl you; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

       7. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

       8.  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

       9. Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

       10. For the STARS of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the SUN shall be darkened IN his GOING FORTH, and the MOON shall not cause her light to shine.”


         Can you not see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, that Micah 5:2 is speaking of the GOINGS forth of Jesus have been PURPOSED or ORDAINED from ANCIENT times for the Messiah's ANCESTRY or FAMILY LINE to be out of Judah and NOT that the SON OF Almighty God was BEGOTTEN in eternity past. And the SECOND GOING FORTH of Jesus is his SECOND COMING.

         Also the Hebrew word translated as GOINGS FORTH also means ORIGIN speaking of ANCESTRY, FAMILY LINE or DESCENT.

         So I myself must conclude that Micah 5:2 is NOT speaking of Jesus ACTUALLY and LITERALLY being BEGOTTEN by Almighty God in eternity past, but rather this verse is speaking of the ORIGIN of Jesus being OUT of the ANCESTRY or the FAMILY LINE of JUDAH and that his GOINGS FORTH were ORDAINED by his God and Father from ANCIENT time even before the foundation of the world.

         This interpretation AGREES with the interpretation that Jesus PREEXISTED as the WORD WITHIN Almighty God who BROUGHT FORTH his SPOKEN WORD in PROPHECY to ONE DAY bring forth his Son in the fullness of the time when the Word was MADE alive in the womb of the virgin Mary to be BORN or be BEGOTTEN as the Son of MAN and called the SON OF the HIGHEST.

         Let us take a look at the next verse that is used to try and prove the doctrine of the trinity and that Jesus preexisted as the SON OF Almighty God from all eternity WITHOUT ever having a BEGINNING. 

         Colossians 1:15-17 is often used by BOTH sides of this controversy to try and support there point of view.


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       VERSE #11.



DOES COLOSSIANS 1:15-17


JESUS IS BEFORE ALL THINGS”


PROVE THAT JESUS PREEXISTED?


         This passage of scripture is actually used by BOTH sides of the controversy to try and prove on one hand that Jesus has always existed as God the SON, who was WITHOUT BEGINNING, and on the other hand it is used by the other side of the argument to try and support that Jesus did indeed have a BEGINNING by being the FIRST BORN of EVERY creature.

         Let us begin this study in God's word by reading this verse in question that can be INTERPRETED an a number of ways, then we will take a closer look at this passage of scripture word by word in order to see which of these different ways of interpretation of this passage of scripture AGREES with the REST of God's word WITHOUT any contradictions?

         Colossians 1:15-17.


       “Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE:

       16. For BY him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created BY him, and FOR him: 

       17. And he is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and BY him ALL THING CONSISTS.”


         So then, let us read some of the following INTERPRETATIONS that have been concluded by different groups of Christians as to what this passage of scripture means. Now we all can know and understand that WHATEVER INTERPRETATION that is concluded as to what this passage of scripture means then that INTERPRETATION MUST AGREE with the REST of God's word WITHOUT ANY CONTRADICTIONS.


         INTERPRETATION #1.

         Those who teach the doctrine of the trinity dogmatically demand that this passage of scripture without fail means that Jesus preexisted for all eternity AS the SON OF Almighty God the Father being the SECOND person of the TRINITY, God the SON who is CO EQUAL with the Father in every way where neither is less than nor greater than the other, and CO ETERNAL with Almighty God the Father where both the Father and the Son have always existed for all eternity and neither the Father nor the Son had a BEGINNING.


         INTERPRETATION #2.

         Some Christians, who can NOT ACCEPT that doctrine of the trinity, which falsely teaches that Jesus the SON OF Almighty God the Father is EQUAL to HIS God and Father, because this CO EQUAL teaching of the doctrine of the trinity does NOT AGREE with the REST of God's word, teach that Jesus preexisted AS the SON OF Almighty God the Father being his DIVINE SON who has always existed from all eternity WITHOUT BEGINNING, and God created all things THROUGH his Son Jesus.


         INTERPRETATION #3.

         Other Christians, who can NOT ACCEPT the doctrine of the trinity, which falsely teaches that Jesus is co equal AND co eternal with Almighty God, because the mere terms of Jesus being the SON OF the ALMIGHTY God the FATHER demand that Jesus as the SON have a BEGINNING. Therefore they teach that the ONLY way Jesus could had PREEXISTED was as the Word.

         Now under this line of reasoning in interpretation #3 there are TWO DIFFERENT ways that Christians INTERPRET Jesus preexisting as the Word. The first interpretation of Jesus preexisting as the Word will be considered as INTERPRETATION #3 and the second way of interpreting Jesus preexisting as the Word will be explained under INTERPRETATION #4.

         So then, ONE interpretation of Jesus preexisting as the Word teach that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH THE God, and the Word was God, which they INTERPRET as meaning that the Word was a SEPARATE SPIRIT being who was WITH THE God for all eternity. And then in the fullness of time this DIVINE SEPARATE Spirit being called the Word came down out of heaven down to the earth and was INCARNATED as the Son of Almighty God to be the DIVINE SON OF God.

         But yet SOME Christians, who do indeed do NOT believe in the doctrine of the TRINITY and therefore believe that Jesus could have ONLY preexisted as the Word, who THEY dogmatically demand to be a SEPARATE Spirit being who has always existed WITH God in the beginning, still yet dogmatically demand that Jesus if FULLY ALMIGHTY God in the flesh and fully man at the same time.

         In other words, some Christians, who do NOT believe in the doctrine of the trinity, but they still yet believe that Jesus, while he was on the earth that he was the DIVINE Son of God. That is to say, the Word being INCARNATED in the flesh means that Jesus must without fail be the DIVINE Son of God. And therefore being DIVINE or being DEITY, then Jesus must without fail be FULLY ALMIGHTY God in the flesh and fully man at the SAME time.


         INTERPRETATION #4.

         Then there are some Christians, who believe that Jesus PREEXISTED as the Word of God BEFORE the foundation of the world. But rather that the Word existing as a SEPARATED Spirit being they believe that the Word has always existed WITHIN THE ONE TRUE and ONLY WISE God.


         And again there may be other interpretations as well, but any other interpretation will FIT in one of the above FOUR different interpretations with perhaps some slightly different points of view.


         Now with that being said I want to begin this particular study in God's word by FIRST giving you, the reader, and seeker of the truth, the INTERPRETATION that I myself have conclude from all the evidence, and then I will give you all the evidence from the WHOLE word of God explaining how I came to believe what I believe.

         So then here is what I personally have come to believe that Colossians 1:15-17 means in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God the Father.


       “Who (speaking of Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God the Father,) is the IMAGE OF the invisible God (Jesus being the IMAGE OF his God and Father demands that Jesus NOT be ONE and the SELF SAME BEING as the FATHER, the INVISIBLE God), the FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE: (the word FIRST BORN here means TWO things).


         FIRST this word means that Jesus was the FIRST creature to be BORN of BROUGHT INTO existence of EVERY creature meaning without fail that Jesus being MADE, CREATED, BORN or brought into existence where this creature had never existed before was PRIOR to EVERY OTHER creature.

         SECOND this word means that Jesus is the FIRST, as in, Jesus is the HIGHEST of every creature that Almighty God has MADE, CREATED, BEGOTTEN, or brought into existence where this creature had never existed before.

         Either way this verse in TRUTH clearly teaches us that this CREATURE that is referring to Jesus did indeed have a BEGINNING.

         The questions now becomes, WHEN was the BEGINNING of the CREATURE that Almighty God brought forth into existed where this CREATURE Jesus was BOTH FIRST, as in, PRIOR to EVERY other creature, AND was ALSO FIRST, as in, Jesus being the HIGHEST creations over all the others of God's creation?

         Now those who teach INTERPRETATION #1, INTERPRETATION #2, and INTERPRETATION #3 ALL dogmatically demand that the WHEN Jesus was BEGOTTEN must be without fail in all eternity past BEFORE the foundation of the world, or BEFORE all of CREATION. And they REASON and demand that it MUST be that Jesus preexisted for all eternity, because HOW could Jesus be the CREATOR and create ALL THINGS if Jesus was not BEGOTTEN from all eternity?

         Again please keep in mind that to some Christians, this phrase, “Who being the FIRST BORN of EVERY CREATURE dogmatically means that Jesus never had a BEGINNING!” Anyway the main focus right now is HOW can Jess be the CREATOR to create ALL THINGS if so be that Jesus did NOT exist for all eternity or at least preexist in eternity past BEFORE creation began?

         Well the answer is quite simple! You see my dear brothers and sister in our Lord Jesus Christ, the CREATURE that is being spoken of here in Colossians 1:15-17 here is The NEW CREATION of Almighty God.

         The term FIRST BORN is speaking of the RESURRECTION of the dead where Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE to EVER inherit ETERNAL LIFE. The very CONTEXT of this verse in question CLEARLY and PLAINLY teaches us that Jesus is the FIRSTBORN from the DEAD in the very next verse Colossians 1:18, “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the BEGINNING, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that [or so that, or IN ORDER THAT] in all things he might have the PREEMINENCE.” The word “PREEMINENCE” means to be ABOVE all others. In other words, Jesus was HIGHLY EXALTED to become a God over all of the creation of Almighty God the Father only AFTER Jesus as the Son of MAN became obedient unto death on the cross to redeem WHOSOEVER believes IN him so that ALL THEY who are IN him should become JOINT HEIRS with the FIRST BORN of EVERY other NEW CREATURE IN Jesus Christ. Romans 8:29 teaches us that Jesus is the FIRST BORN AMONG many BRETHREN.)


       16. For (or BECAUSE) BY him (or because IN him, or BECAUSE OF him, or on ACCOUNT OF him) were ALL THINGS (were ALL THEY, speaking of the NEW CREATURES who are IN Jesus) CREATED (in other words, the LITERAL Greek reads as follows, “that IN him IS CREATED the ALL or the ALL or the THEY who are IN him IS CREATED), that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created BY him, and FOR him: (the ALL things is speaking of the ALL WHO are IN Jesus Christ or BY the MEANS of Jesus ALL who are or will be NEW CREATURES were or have been CREATED FOR, or TOWARD, or INTO Jesus meaning that this was the GOAL or the purpose that Jesus died fro our sins and went BEFORE us so that we shall be LIKE HIM.) 

         17. And he is BEFORE ALL THINGS (meaning that Jesus is OVER not only ALL the WHO that are found to be IN him, but also that Jesus has been HIGHLY EXALTED to be OVER the angels as well), and BY him ALL THINGS CONSISTS. (the LITERAL Greek of verse 17 read as follows. “ And he is before or OVER ALL and the ALL IN him has together STOOD or has cohesion” in other words, Jesus is OVER ALL who have become NEW CREATURES being IN him and we are made ONE with Jesus because we have STOOD or we have OVER COME with him.)

         So to me, I clearly see this passage of scripture speaking of the yet COMING world that Almighty God the Father MADE POSSIBLE through his SON Jesus where ALL authority and power is GIVEN to Jesus by his God and Father to rule and reign over all the creation of Almighty God during the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

         This INTERPRETATION AGREES with Ephesians 1:15-23


       “Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith IN the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

       16. Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 

       17. That the GOD OF our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory (this verse is one of many that clearly and plainly teaches us that Jesus is NOT the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God, because the SON OF God has a GOD who is OVER him and that one true and only ALMIGHTY God is the FATHER. In other words, Jesus was the IMAGE of his God and Father.), may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

       18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his INHERITANCE in the saints,

       19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe (or who are IN Jesus), according to the working of his mighty power,

       20. Which he wrought in Christ (or which Almighty God brought to pass IN his Son the ANOINTED ONE whom he made to be both Lord and Christ), when he (Almighty God the Father) raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

       21. Far ABOVE ALL principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

       22. And has put all things (or has made Jesus to be Kings over all his SUBJECTS speaking of his enemies that will be taught of the Lord during the 1000 year reign of Jesus) under his feet, and GAVE him to be the HEAD OVER all things to the church (or AND the Father has made his SON Jesus to be the head over all the called out ones),

       23. Which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all.”


         And both of these passages of scripture, the verse is question in Colossians 1:15-17 and this one here in Ephesians 3:15-23 AGREE with Hebrews 1:2.


       “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

       2. Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed (or whom his God and Father has MADE) heir of all things, by whom (or on account of whom, because of whom, for whom. For the sake of whom) also he made the worlds (the ages, this present world and the worlds or ages to come);

       3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of his person (again Jesus being in the IMAGE of Almighty God the Father clearly and plainly teaches us that Jesus is NOT Almighty God HIMSELF in the flesh being FULLY ALMIGHTY God and fully man at the SAME TIME. But rather Jesus being in the express IMAGE of his God and Father means that the WORKS that Jesus did through the power f the eternal Spirit who DWELT in him shows us the true nature and character of the one true and only Almighty God the Father), and upholding all things by the word of his power (or also carrying on together with the all declaring the ability of him), when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”


         

         All three of these verses are speaking of the world yet to COME that was made POSSIBLE by the ATONEMENT that Jesus the SON OF Almighty God made for all of mankind so that WHOSOEVER of any person whatsoever who BELIEVES IN Jesus as the Messiah shall be saved or forgiven of all their past sins so that the SAME eternal Spirit can DWELL IN them to empower the BELIEVER to OVER COME sin in order to have the right to obtain eternal life in the world to come.

         Now for ME, I myself must conclude that INTERPRETATION #4 is the only SOUND BIBLICAL interpretation that agree with the whole word of God without having any contradictions. Here again is the interpretation that I myself personally choose.


         INTERPRETATION #4.

         Then there are some Christians, who believe that Jesus PREEXISTED as the Word of God BEFORE the foundation of the world. But rather that the Word existing as a SEPARATED Spirit being they believe that the Word has always existed WITHIN THE ONE TRUE and ONLY WISE God.

          In other words, I and many other Christians believe that Jesus PREEXISTED ONLY as the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God as the PLAN and WILL of God and therefore Jesus did NOT come into ACTUAL literal existence UNTIL the SPOKEN WORD of God was MADE ALIVE in the womb of Mary and was BORN or BEGOTTEN of God as the Son of MAN nine months later. Then in the FULLNESS of time God ANOINTED his SON Jesus when Almighty God the Father began to DWELL IN his SON at his baptism in water by John the baptist. To say this another way, the Word has always existed WITHIN Almighty God BEFORE God ever began creating. And God created all things BY his SPOKEN WORD that was WITHIN HIMSELF being his THOUGHTS and PLANS to one day bring forth into existence where that never existed before EXCEPT in the MIND and the PLAN of God.

         You see the LITERAL translation of John 1:1 says,


       “In beginning was the SAYING ans the SAYING was WITHIN THE God, and God was the SAYING.”


         Also please consider the LITERAL translation of Exodus 3:14, where God say, “I AM THAT I AM”, which LITERALLY means that God is saying,


       “I SHALL BECOME what or who I AM BECOMING”


         Everything and everyone that Almighty God created were created by the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God himself including his SON Jesus, who was brought into existence when God sent his WORD down from Heaven to be SPOKEN by his angel Gabriel to the VIRGIN Mary. And then when Mary AGREED to the SPOKEN WORD saying BE it DONE unto me ACCORDING to your WORD, then the SPOKEN word was MADE to become living flesh in the womb of Mary to be BORN the Son of MAN.


         To me Acts 2:22-38, the first sermon preached by the apostle Peter clearly teaches us that the doctrine of the trinity is a FALSE teaching and therefore should be rejected.


       “You men of Israel, HEAR these WORDS; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you BY miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you yourselves also know: (Jesus said in John 5:19 and John 10:14 that he could OF HIMSELF do NOTHING and that the Father IN him did the WORKS.)

       23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (or God bringing forth his SON into the world by his WORD has always had this in his mind and plan even before the foundation of the world to be the LAMB of God to take away the sins of the world), you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

       24. Whom God has raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. (because God has SPOKEN it to COME to pass and everything that God prophesies in his word shall come to pass.)

       25. For David speaks concerning him (Jesus), I (Jesus reading and understanding that the scripture SPOKE of HIM being the prophesied coming Messiah that was to come. I Jesus) FORESAW the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

       26. Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

       27. Because you (MY God and MY Father) will not leave my soul in hell, neither will you suffer your Holy One to see corruption.

       28. You have made known to me the WAYS of life; (or you my God and Father have TAUGHT me how to receive ETERNAL LIFE) you shall make me full of JOY with your countenance.(or you my God and my father shall GLORIFY me with your OWN SELF with the GLORY that you have promised me from before the foudation of the world TEACHING me that you WORD, you written word is speaking of ME as being your elect one whom you have chosen to be your servant to die for the sin of the world.)

       29. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

       30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins (speaking of the loins and linage of David), according to the flesh, he (Almighty God) would raise up Christ (his ANOINTED ONE whom he has GIVEN ALL POWER and AUTHORITY) to sit on his throne;

       31. He (David being a prophet and an inspired writer of God's word) seeing this before spoke (or wrote) of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

       32. This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

       33. Therefore being by the right hand of God EXALTED, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear. (or after Jesus became obedient unto death on the cross his God and Father reward his SON Jesus with the PROMISE JOY of ETERNAL LIFE, being HIGHLY EXALTED to the HIGHEST position second only to his God and Father and also has RECEIVED that PROMISE of pouring out or sending the Holy Spirit of the Father along WITH his Father which the Jews were witnessing by seeing and hearing.)

       34. For David is NOT ascended into the heavens: but he said himself (in other words, Paul is explaining that many things that David himself said were in TRUTH speaking of the coming Messiah Jesus that was PROPHESIED to come by the SPOKEN WORD of Almighty God), The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit you on my right hand,

       35. Until I make your foes your footstool.

       36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has MADE that same Jesus, whom you have crucified, BOTH Lord and Christ. (every thing that Jesus is or that Jesus has was GIVEN TO him BY HIS God and Father the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God who ALONE is the FATHER)

       37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (or what shall we do to be saved? Please read the study “HOW CAN I BE SAVED?” for the basic steps that one must take in order to be saved with the promise that they will KNOW and be ASSURED that they are TRULY SAVED never doubting again of whether or not that they are saved.)

       38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”


         So then, to me I myself believe that the whole word of Almighty God places far more EMPHASIS on Jesus being a MAN, the Son OF MAN, as oppose to being referred to as the SON OF Almighty God. What I mean by this is that some Christians dogmatically demand that Jesus being the SON OF Almighty God means without fail that Jesus IS THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF.

         In other words, the Roman Catholic church and many main stream Protestant churches that came out of the Catholic church dogmatically demand that Jesus coming OUT FROM God means without fail the Jesus IS FULL ALMIGHTY God in the flesh and fully man at the SAME time, which they teach means that Jesus is CO EQUAL with Almighty God the Father, which toe them means without fail that Jesus is EQUAL in every way to the Almighty God the Father where neither is greater than nor less than the other, and that Jesus is CO ETERNAL with Almighty God the Father,which to them means that Jesus has ALWAYS existed as the SON of Almighty God the Father, being God the SON, the SECOND person of the so called TRINITY.

         But as we have CLEARLY and PLAINLY seen from this study in God's word that these man made teachings of the doctrine of the trinity and the doctrine of the deity of Jesus are NOT SOUND BIBLICAL teachings, because that do NOT AGREE with the WHOLE word of Almighty God.


         The following is a list of 19 different thoughts that definitely contradict what I have always been taught about Jesus being God in the flesh, being FULLY God and FULLY man at the SAME time. And that Almighty God, the Father and his Son Jesus are CO-EQUAL with each other in every way where neither is greater than or less than the other. I have pondered over these and other scriptures that sparked these questions in me for many years and have have written several in-depth studies of God's word relating to this highly controversial subject of whether or not Jesus is God, as inone and the same as being the ONE TRUE GOD and ONLY Almighty God, as the doctrine of the trinity teaches. 

         You see, there can be ONLY ONE ALMIGHTY God, because the very word "ALMIGHTY" clearly means that there can be NO OTHER god or God that is GREATER or more MIGHTIER than the God who is ALL mighty, hence the word or title the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God. So then, the question is since the Bible teaches us in 1 Corinthians 8:6 that to us as Christians there is but ONE God and that ONE God IS the FATHER, then HOW can Jesus, the SON of Almighty God, the Father, also be the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God seeing that the doctrine of the trinity also teaches us that Jesus is NOT the FATHER and Almighty God the FATHER is NOT his SON Jesus?

         1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to US there is but ONE Godthe Father,..."

          Please consider carefully and prayerfully the following 19 things to ponder about Jesus and how they CONTRADICT what many of us have been TAUGHT about the "DOCTRINE" of the trinity. The scripture references are given at the end of this study. Also there are several IN DEPTH studies on specific verses that have been points of controversy, because of the way in which they have been INTERPRETED. All that I am asking is that you at least take time to HEAR the WHOLE matter by CONSIDERING these many OTHER possible interpretations that do NOT CONTRADICT the WHOLE word of God. But for now in this study I am presenting to you some thoughts or points to THINK about by considering the CLEAR, PLAIN, and SIMPLE word of Almighty God over the  IMPLIED complex INTERPRETATION of these verses used to try and prove the "DOCTRINE" of the trinity.



         POINT #1.

         Jesus had a WILL of his OWN that was different from the WILL of Almighty God, the Father and therefore Jesus needed to become OBEDIENT to his Father's WILL saying NOT MY will, but YOUR will be done. So then, how can Jesus be one and the same being as Almighty God the Father and have a DIFFERENT WILL that needed to be brought UNDER the will of his God and Father the one true and ONLY ALMIGHTY God?


         POINT #2.

         Jesus was TEMPTED with evil to sin against his God and Father and the word of God plainly states that Almighty God CANNOT be TEMPTED with evil. So then, since ALMIGHTY God himself CANNOT be tempted, then HOW can Jesus be the ONE true and ONLY Almighty God seeing that Jesus himself was tempted in all points like as well are tempted, but Almighty God himself CANNOT be tempted?

         POINT #3.

         Jesus did NOT KNOW the day nor the hour of his return, but yet Almighty God the Father does know that day and hour of his Son's return. HOW can this be IF what we have been TAUGHT is the truth that Jesus IS FULLY God and full flesh at the SAME time? I mean THING this though for yourself! How can Almighty God KNOW and NOT KNOW the very SAME thing at the same time? You see IF Jesus is truly the one true and ONLY ALMIGHTY God, then Jesus would BE the FATHER at the SAME time that Jesus is the SON and Jesus would therefore KNOW that day and the hour of his return, because Jesus would BE the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God. However, the WORD of TRUTH plainly states that that Jesus himself did NOT KNOW the day nor the hour of his return when at the SAME time his God and Father DID KNOW the day and the hour of his Son's return. Therefore the DOCTRINE of the trinity is simple not BIBLICAL, because for Jesus to be EQUAL with his Father, then Jesus WOULD KNOW everything that his Father knows.

         POINT #4.

         Jesus COULD NOT DO any mighty work of healing in his own home town, when the Bible says that NOTHING is impossible with Almighty God. Keep in mind that the word of God does not say that Jesus WOULD not heal these people, but rather that Jesus COULD NOT in that Jesus was NOT ABLE to do any mighty work of healing in his own home town.

         POINT #5.

         Jesus could do NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but rather Almighty God, the Father, by his Holy Spirit DWELLING IN his SON Jesus did the works. So then, HOW can the DOCTRINE of the trinity be true when this man made doctrine teaches us that Jesus is EQUAL to the Father in every way where neither is less than or greater than the other? The truth of the matter is that the DOCTRINE of the trinity is NOT a SOUND BIBLICAL teaching! It needs to be rejected as a false teaching.

         POINT #6.

         Jesus was ANOINTED BY Almighty God, the Father to preach the gospel and to heal the sick, which raises the question, “Why did Jesus, the SON of Almighty God need to be anointed with the Holy Spirit OF Almighty God, IF Jesus was truly THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God in the flesh, being FULLY God and fully man and EQUAL with ALMIGHTY God in every way where neither is greater than of less than the other as the DOCTRINES of the trinity and the deity of Jesus teaches?” The truth of the matter is that Jesus is NOT the one true and ONLY Almighty God who alone is the FATHER according to 1 Corinthians 8:6.

         POINT #7.

          Jesus said there is NONE good but the Father ONLY, when Jesus himself was addressed as good master or teacher. All through the Bible we clearly see that Jesus and Almighty God the Father are DIFFERENT and SEPARATE persons, so then why do some blindly accept the false teaching that Jesus IS FULLY God is the flesh and as be EQUAL with God in every way where neither is great than or less than the other. It should be clear to even the casual reader of God's word that Jesus consider his Father to be GREATER than himself. So then, WHY do some Christians cling to the man made doctrine that falsely teaches that Jesus is EQUAL to Almighty God?

         POINT #8.

         Jesus said the Father is GREATER than ALL in the SAME context where he says that he and the Father are ONE, which literally means that they AGREE as one and NOT that they are one and the SAME being. Can you not see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, that IF this TRULY meant that Jesus and the Father are ONE and the SAME being, then the DOCTRINE of the trinity is still in error, because the doctrine of the trinity plainly states that Jesus is NOT the FATHER. Also IF the phrase in John 1:1 "...the Word WAS God." truly means that Jesus is GOD, in that, Jesus is THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God, then this would ALSO make Jesus to BE the FATHER, and therefore would contradict the teaching of the doctrine of the trinity. However the WHOLE word of TRUTH clearly and plainly teaches us that Jesus in NOT the FATHER.

         POINT #9.

Jesus was, is NOW and always will be UNDER or SUBJECT unto THE one true and ONLY Almighty God the FATHER. Often Christians TRY and explain away these CONTRADICTIONS between the man made teachings of the doctrine of the trinity and the clear plain and simple word of God by reasoning that Jesus was only under his Father while he was in the FLESH. However, IF this were true, then they would be CONTRADICTING their own belief, because they would be in fact saying that Jesus was NOT FULLY God in the FLESH and not fully EQUAL with Almighty God the Father. The truth of the matter is that no matter how you slice of dice it the clear plain and simple word of truth cannot be reasoned away. Please be absolutely sure that you carefully and prayerfully read all the verses below that clearly teach us that Jesus is UNDER and SUBJECT to his God and Father even now while Jesus is seated on his Father's throne in heaven and even after the 1000 year reign of Jesus will still be UNDER and SUBJECT to his God and Father, the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God. Therefore we must conclude that Jesus is NOT the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God, because being ALL MIGHTY God means that there is NO God that is OVER you!

         POINT #10.

         Jesus plainly calls Almighty God, the Father, HIS GOD and HIS FATHER by saying words like MY God and MY Father. And God the Father HIMSELF says to his SON Jesus that he is the GOD of his Son Jesus saying EVEN YOUR God has anointed YOU in Hebrews 1:9. Again the very word "ALMIGHTY" means that there is NO God over or above the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God the Father of ALL including being the Father and God of his only begotten SON Jesus.

         POINT #11.

         Jesus NEVER once claims that he himself is the one true and only Almighty God, or called himself God, or referred to himself as being EQUAL with HIS God and Father. In fact Jesus, nor the rest of God's word teaches us that Jesus is equal with Almighty God. The word teaches that Jesus is the SON OF Almighty God. The word teaches us that Almighty God the Father is GREATER than Jesus. So why then do some still dogmatically cling and teach the doctrines of men that clearly CONTRADICT the clear plain and simple word of TRUTH, the Holy Bible?

         POINT #12.

         Jesus rather plainly states 80 times that he is the Son of MAN. Even when Jesus is addressed as being the SON OF God, Jesus immediately turns it around and calls himself the Son of MAN. Please read the study called "JESUS THE SON OF MAN" where you will learn why the Bible speaks of Jesus being the Son of MAN twice as much as it refers to Jesus being the Son of God. In fact there is only one time where the Bible clearly and plainly comes straight out and states that Jesus is God. And even in the context of this one time where Almighty God the Father calls his Son God it is clearly understood that Almighty God the Father is God OVER his Son Jesus being EXALTED to be a God at the Father's right hand to sit upon his Father's throne.

         POINT #13.

         What ever the Word was in the beginning BEFORE the Word BECAME or the word was MADE to become FLESH is not what is in question, but rather what is in question is what the Word BECAME, or what the Word was MADE. The Bible teaches us that the Word BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us. So then, this HUMAN MAN that was CREATED or MADE by the Word of Almighty God the Father was GIVEN the name Jesus who dwelt among mankind some 2000 years ago. The Bible goes on to tell us that he, the Word that was with God stripped himself of ALL his glory and took upon himself the NATURE of man and became FLESH and blood just like you and I. Again I want to point out that if one dogmatically demands that since A=B, and B=C, then A=C to automatically mean that since the Word = Almighty God, and the Word = Jesus, then therefore Jesus = Almighty God, then you are ALSO dogmatically saying that Jesus IS the FATHER even if you are not aware that you are doing son, and therefore you are contradicting your own teaching of the doctrine of the trinity.

         POINT #14.

         Jesus PRAYED to HIS God the Father for himself and others showing that he depended upon Almighty God, his God and Father. Now IF Jesus were truly FULLY Almighty God in the flesh then he would have no need to pray to anyone, because Jesus himself would already be THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God and therefore Jesus would BE the FATHER. This is the doctrine called ONENESS of Modalism that teaches that Jesus IS the FATHER and Almighty God the Father IS the SON at the same time as being different manifestations of the same one true God.

         POINT #15.

         Jesus and Almighty God, the Father, are clearly shown in multiple verses of the Bible that they are TWO separate and distinct beings and that we as believers must believer and HONOR them BOTH in order to obtain eternal life in the world to come. So then, clearly the doctrine of oneness or Modalism is also a FALSE teaching as well.

         POINT # 16.

         Jesus INCREASED in knowledge of God and in the grace and favor of HIS God and Father. Jesus also increased in the Spirit and he learned obedience by the things he suffered. In other words, IF Jesus were truly and FULLY God, then would not this be THE one true and ONLY Almighty God OBEYING HIMSELF? WHY would an ALMIGHTY and and ALL KNOWING God need to LEARN anything. Can you not see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ that these man made doctrines do NOT make any sense when they are examined in the LIGHT of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Therefore they must be rejected as FALSE teachings.

         POINT #17.

         Jesus was HIGHLY EXALTED by Almighty God the Father to the highest place there is without being OVER Almighty God the Father HIMSELF. And please keep in mind that Jesus was EXALTED to be a God under his God and Father only AFTER Jesus the SON learned obedience to his God and Father by his death on the cross. Again, there can only be ONE true God, who ALONE is THE ALMIGHTY God, who has NO other God OVER him and the Bible calls this ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God, the FATHER. The Bible also clearly teaches us that Jesus is NOT the FATHER. Therefore Jesus can NOT be the one true and ONLY ALMIGHTY God, who ALONE is the FATHER.


         POINT #18.

         Jesus was GIVEN to have IMMORTAL LIFE in himself EVEN AS the Almighty God, the Father, has life in himself. Or in the exact same way that Almighty God the Father has life in himself is the SAME eternal life that Almighty God the Father GAVE ETERNAL LIFE unto his SON Jesus when God resurrected his Son from the dead. Now please think about this for a moment, IF Jesus was truly ALMIGHTY God in the FLESH, being FULLY God and fully man at the SAME time as many of us have been TAUGHT, then WHY would THE one true and ONLY Almighty God NEED to be GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE seeing and knowing that Almighty God is already an eternal and SELF EXISTING being. Can you not see my dear brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, that even if your TRY to REASON this truth away by saying that Jesus stripped himself of his eternal life so that he could die for the sins of man. then you are CONTRADICTING your own doctrine of the trinity which clearly states that Jesus is EQUAL with the Father in every way. The TRUTH of the matter is that Jesus and his God and Father are NOT equal.


         POINT # 19.

         The Bible plainly teaches us that everything that Jesus is and has was GIVEN to him BY HIS God and Father, the ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God.


      POINT #20.

         Jesus was COMMANDED of Almighty God the Father. Again why would one COMMAND their OWN SELF to do something? And if they were separate but EQUAL in every way as the DOCTRINE of the trinity states, then you also have to ask yourself, do two beings who are EQUAL in every way were neither is greater than or less than the other COMMAND each other to do things. Absolutely NOT, no person being EQUAL with another would ever COMMAND them to do anything, but rather they would ASK them. Jesus ASKED his Father many times in prayer, but in comparison with Jesus ASKING his God and Father in prayer we see that Almighty God, the Father, gave his Son COMMANDMENTS that Jesus obeyed and kept in order to please his God and Father THE ONE TRUE and ONLY ALMIGHTY God.


         POINT #21.

         Also Jesus, the HUMAN MAN, the Son of MAN, the SON OF God, had a beginning. No matter HOW you look at it, if there is a Father and a Son, then at some point in TIME the Son needed to be BORN or to be BROUGHT into existence by the BEGETTING of his God and Father. Therefore the human Jesus, the SON OF Almighty God the Father, did in fact have a BEGINNING.
         These SOUND BIBLICAL FACTS warrant addressing by every believer, because the word of God does not contradict itself and Almighty God is not the author of confusion. I have heard from some non-believers say that one of the reason WHY they would NOT believe in God, is BECAUSE they just could not accept this three is one, and one in three trinity "DOCTRINE" that Christians talk about.

         And also I have come to learn that there are some Christians who are leaving their Christian faith for this very same reason. Some are becoming atheist and some are converting to Islam, because these groups are pointing out the very same things that the Holy Spirit has shown me and which I have just shown you in these 19 points to ponder. To ME there is absolutely no need for all of this confusion if the WHOLE TRUTH of God's word was taught and then in unity we all spoke the same thing.

         The TRUTH of the matter is that every scripture that is used to TRY and teach or support the DOCTRINE of the trinity and that Jesus is FULLY THE ALMIGHTY God in the flesh, FULLY God and fully man at the SAME time and that Jesus is one and the same with God the Father, being co-equal and co-eternal with Almighty God the Father, can be interpreted ANOTHER way that does NOT contradict the whole word of God, if they are left in the context of where they are found and the WHOLE word of God is taken into account and weighed along side of the interpretation that is concluded.

         In other words, ALL the scriptures that PLAINLY show that Jesus is separate from the Father and that Jesus is under or subject to his God and Father CANNOT be interpreted in any other way.

         So then, the only way for there to be harmony with the WHOLE word of God, is for us to go back and rethink the verses that are used to TRY and teach the DOCTRINES of the trinity and the deity of Jesus.

         After the Holy Spirit revealed these 19 plus contradictions to me I had to put away these false teachings of these man made "DOCTRINES" of the trinity and of the deity of Jesus and embrace what the Holy word of Almighty God TRULY teaches despite the persecution and rejection that comes from my fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus, the CHRIST.

         If you TRULY desire to know the TRUTH of the WHOLE word or God, then I implore you follow up by reading the following in-depth studies that are SOLIDLY and SOLELY based upon the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Since the nature of these studies are highly controversial and go against the "mainstream" teaching of the Roman Catholic church and many Protestant church that split off from the Catholic church I encourage you to read the "OPENING PRAYER" and "THE WHOLE MATTER" first before beginning these studies. Then it would be best to read these studies in the order that they are listed for this is how they were revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. But no matter in what order you choose to read them I again ask that you carefully and prayerfully read them with and honest and sincere heart seeking only the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of Almighty God.


"THERE IS BUT ONE GOD"

"JESUS THE SON OF MAN"

"JESUS THE CHRIST"
"
JESUS THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY"

"JESUS OUR FELLOW SERVANT"
"
OUR GOD IS ONE !"
"
WHO IS JESUS?"
"
IS JESUS THE ALMIGHTY GOD?"

"THE TRINITY"

"THE DEITY OF JESUS AND THE TRINITY"

"DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?"
"
WHO IS THE KING OF KINGS?"

"I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA"

"WHO IS OUR SAVIOR; GOD THE FATHER OR JESUS?"
"
DID JESUS HAVE A BEGINNING?"
"
JOHN 1:1- THE WORD WAS GOD"

"JESUS THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES!"
"
GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH"
"
HEBREW 8:1-9 YOUR THRONE O GOD!"
"ANSWERING THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY"



         Since the writing of the above studies in God's word the Holy Spirit has led me to write many more studies on this highly controversial study focusing specifically on the verses that SEEM to be saying that Jesus preexisted for all eternity and therefore some have concluded that this proves without a doubt that Jesus IS THE ALMIGHTY God HIMSELF.

         Here is the expanded list of these added studies that expose the ERRORS of interpretation made by those who dogmatically demand that our God is a TRINITY God or a TRIUNE God much like the false pagan gods who were being widely worshiped during the founding or the beginning of the Christian church.

         Thanks for reading. May God bless you richly as you continue to seek the TRUTH of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Below are some other verses that are used to try and support the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Jesus. There may be other verses which you may be having trouble seeing any other way than what you were dogmatically taught over and over for so long, but I assure you that each and every verse used by those who teach the doctrine of the trinity does indeed have a different meaning that does NOT CONTRADICT any other part of God's word. If there is a verse that I have not listed please do not hesitate to write and let me know. Some verse are included in others studies and they may not appear as an individual study.

             Thanks for reading and may God bless you richly as you continue to seek the truth of the WHOLE word of Almighty God. Below is a list of the studies I mentioned within this study along with all the other studies that I have related to this subject of HOW did Jesus PREEXIST. We all agree that Jesus preexisted is some form so the question is not IF Jesus preexisted, but rather in what form as to HOW Jesus preexisted in eternity past.

             Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,

             Mark.

RETURN TO HOMEPAGE

AT

AMatterOfTruth.com


VERSES USED TO TEACH THAT JESUS PREEXISTED!


JOHN 1:1-3


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2. The same was in the beginning with God.

3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” 


JOHN 3:13


And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”


JOHN 3:17

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 


JOHN 3:31


He that comes from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he that comes from heaven is above all.


JOHN 6:32 


         “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven


JOHN 6:33 


 For the bread of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world.”


JOHN 6:38


For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”


JOHN 6:42 

And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?


JOHN 6:50 

 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


JOHN 6:51

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


JOHN 6:58

This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.


JOHN 6:62 


What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”


JOHN 8:14


Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”


JOHN 8:23 


And he said unto them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.”


JOHN 8:24


I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.


JOHN 8:42,43

        “Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 
        43. Why do you not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.



JOHN 8:58


Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”


JOHN 16:28 


I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”


JOHN 17:5


And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”


JOHN 17:8 


For I have given unto them the words which you gave me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.



JOHN 17:24 (scroll down to the second verse in question in this study)


Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.”


ROMANS 8:3 (scroll down to the eleventh verse in question in this study)


For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”


1 CORINTHIANS 10:4 (scroll down to the first verse in question in this study)


And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”


1 CORINTHIANS 15:47 (scroll down to VERSE #6.)


The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”


2 CORINTHIANS 8:9  (scroll down to VERSE #2.)


For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.”


GALATIANS 4:4


But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”


EPHESIANS 3:9-11


And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11. According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:”


EPHESIANS 4:8-10 (scroll down to the fifth verse in question in this study)


Wherefore he said, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)”


COLOSSIANS 1:15-17 (scroll down to the third verse in question in this study)


Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”


HEBREWS 1:2


Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”


Hebrews 2:16,17


For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”


Hebrews 5:8


Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;”


HEBREWS 10:5 (scroll down to VERSE #1.)


Wherefore when he comes into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:”

Psalm 40:6,7


PHILIPPIANS 2:6-8


Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”


1 John 1:1,2


“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

          2.  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)”


REVELATION 3:14 


And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”


MICAH 5:2


But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”


GENESIS 1:26



And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”


PROVERBS 8:22  (scroll down to the second verse in question in this study)



The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.”



Thanks for reading. May God bless you richly as you continue seeking the truth of the whole word of God. Also please read the studies listed below related to Jesus being God, the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Jesus.

Your brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Mark.

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             Verses used to try and support the doctrine of the trinity, and that Jesus is Yahweh himself, as in one and the self same being.

Genesis 1:26---Let US make man in OUR image!

Genesis 18:1-3 Was Jesus ONE of the THREE MEN or angels who APPEARED to Abraham?

Genesis 19:24--- YAHWEH rained down fire... from YAHWEH.

Isaiah 6:3---HOLY HOLY HOLY means TRINITY!

Isaiah 7:14---Immauel God with us!

Isaiah 9:6---MIGHTY GOD and EVERLASTING FATHER!

Isaiah 48:16---The LORD AND HIS SPIRIT SENT ME!

Micah 5:2--- From everlasting.

Zechariah 12:10--- Look upon me whom they have pierced.

Matthew 1:23---Emmanuel God with us!

Matthew 28:19---In the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

JOHN 1:1---AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

JOHN 2:19-22---Jesus raised HIMSELF from the dead?

JOHN 5:18 JESUS IS EQUAL WITH GOD!

JOHN 8:24 PROVES JESUS IS YAHWEH!

JOHN 8:58---BEFORE ABRAHA I AM!

JOHN 10:30---I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!

JOHN 14:19---JESUS IS THE FATHER?

JOHN 20:28---MY LORD AND MY GOD!

Acts 20:28--- He has purchased with his own blood.

Romans 9:5--- Christ came...God blessed forever.

 2 CORINTHIANS 13:14 TEACHES TRINITY?

EPHESIANS 3:9 DID JESUS CREATE ALL THINGS?

COLOSSIANS 2:9 IS JESUS THE GODHEAD?

PHILIPPIANS 2:6-11 PROVES PREEXISTENCE

1 TIMOTHY 3:16---God was manifest is the flesh

TITUS 2:13---Our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ

TITUS 3:2 God our Savior toward man APPEARED

Hebrews 1:8--- Your throne O' God.

Hebrews 7:1-3 ---Is Melchizedek a theophany of Jesus?

1 John 5:7--- And these three are one.

1 John 5:20--- Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God...

2 Peter 2:1---God AND our Savior Jesus Christ 

2 Peter 3:18---Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ 

Revelation 1:8--- JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY?

Revelation 1:17--- First and the Last (Isaiah 44:6

Revelation 17:14--- WHO IS THE KING OF KINGS.